I remember reading 17th century letters from Dutch diplomats. They used French to write back home- except when they talked about money. Such matters required a higher form of communication.
There's a lot of french in tolstoy too, and I believe most of the dialog can be inferred to be in french but is in russian for literary reasons. French was the daily home language of the russian imperial aristocracy. They spoke russian with an accent.
Lingua franca actually comes from the Mediterranean Lingua Franca [1], which was mostly derived from Northern Italian languages, not French. French eventually became the "lingua franca," but it wasn't widespread (or even clearly defined) when that term started being used.
My grandfather emigrated from Vilnius (was polish at the time) to the USA as a teenager and managed to find a church that did their mass in Latin, and still does to this day. I assume he understood it but I'm not sure - he was well-educated and spoke a few languages.
Giving the mass in Latin wasn't (generally) done because people understood Latin, but because of a traditionalist sense. The Second Vatican Council stated (among other things) that the mass could be done in other languages apart from Latin, and that it was a good thing to use local languages, so people could understand it better.
After that Council some excisions appeared, like the Society of Saint Pius X, that reclaimed the old ways of giving mass, in Latin, (and, IIRC, with the deacon giving his back to the people, not looking at them), and said there was "a moral and theological crisis in the Catholic Church".
Or people like the Palmarian Catholic Church in Spain, saying they have the authentic Pope, and the one in Rome is an Antipope. They were a scam for pulling money from their believers, and their "Pope" kept spending money on booze and expensive cars. They still exist.
Historically Latin was also a common international language. Educated people could understand Latin across much of Europe. Not so great for the majority of people, of course. The article seems to indicate that in some places it was pretty widely understood.
I think some rites of the church did use other languages such as Syriac.
I knew about SSPX but not the Palmarians. They seem to be even odder and a cult. Interesting in the same way I find conspiracy theories interesting, so thanks.
Not just Europe. Well into relatively modern history educated individuals in America were expected to have fluency in Latin and frequently Greek as well. This [1] Harvard admission exam from 1869 immediately comes to mind. Applicants were expected to be able to pass that test, and the overwhelming majority did.
In Spain both are still taught in the standard high-school curriculum.
Not everyone takes those classes of course, but Latin is one of the core optatives in the humanities path, it can be chosen in the university entrance exam as one of the core tests, and many students do pick it.
It's not really taught as a foreign language though, it is used to teach fundamental concepts in linguistic analysis and translation, and it can be a legitimately valuable foundation to have a strong general literacy across romance languages.
I'm not sure how common it is elsewhere, but Roman law also makes up a non-trivial fraction of the compulsory curriculum in the first years of studying law at university. Most of the concepts are still relevant, it's what all modern legal systems are founded on.
I remember that a good friend of mine somehow avoided studying maths for the last four years of high-school by choosing all the alternatives, which included both Latin and ancient Greek. He was and still is a fantastic programmer despite hating maths though, obsessed with Linux distros from early teens.
What's called "Roman law" in Europe derives from the Justinian Code, which was nominally a codification of but in many respects a radical reinterpretation of late roman law. Prior to the Justinian Code, and especially Scholastic era glosses, Roman law was arguably more like a very rigid style of common law; that is, requiring judges to hew closely to precedent rather than applying abstract legal principles.
It was the rediscovery of the Justinian Code during the Scholastic age which kickstarted a blossoming of legal theory in Europe. But they didn't understand that the Justinian Code wasn't a reflection of Roman law so much as a reflection of Emperor Justinian's reforms, which were in part an attempt to reassert control over and simplify the legal system.
It's in Spanish, proof based, but not as hard as Spivak. If he is good at programming he must be good at logic and thus if he understands Math as something to apply rules, he we will ace the book.
He can use Maxima to locally solve the equations. Forget LLM's, these will just make him dumber. Maxima to test the solutions, pen and paper:
The Windows version comes with everything in the installer.
Linux distros have it in its repos, install "wxmaxima" and "maxima-doc"
for documentation. It's weights very little, less than 100MB. Install Gnuplot too for plots/charts/graphs (altough it might come preinstalled for Windows).
And a Math background, even a basic one will be extremeley helpful while coding.
Most schools in Spain thaught us Math as methods to blindly apply formulae based on rote memorization and everyone was just clueless.
Probably not. They were not learning it for funsies, but because it was the business language. English took its place now. If English goes away, it will be replaced by a language by another dominant business power.
Still would be very valuable to be able to read works that shaped western civilization in their original language, since a lot of nuance is lost translating to English. Just see how many crazy readings of the Bible people have (american evangelicals particularly ) because English can’t express the original idea in Greek well enough.
Latin was still part of the mandatory curriculum in french schools, at least when I was there. Didn’t make french kids bilingual (no more than english courses), but it would be safe to assume the average man in the street has at least some vague notions of latin.
Besides the language being Latin vs local languages, there is one huge difference people don't know about. The Tridentine Mass has the priest facing toward the altar and the tabernacle, this is called "ad orientem". In "modern" day post-Second-Vatican-Council mass, the priest typically speaks the local language and faces the congregation.
The modern mass can be done ad orientem. The switch of orientation was only permitted, not required, in the Novus Ordo.
Most of the changes people associate with the Novus Ordo were completely optional and often not even expected to have become so common. This is why all the popes have been exasperated, to varying extents, with the Latin Mass movement. Literally nothing prevents dioceses from celebrating the Novus Ordo mass in Latin, ad orientem, chanting, etc.
What's colloquially called the Latin Mass is the Tridentine Mass, which among other things uses a different calendar, including different biblical readings each week (a smaller selection of biblical passages than the Novus Ordo uses). So it's not just a variation of the Novus Ordo, though the Novus Ordo could be performed in a way that satisfies the vast majority of traditional-minded parishioners. It's exasperating because certain ideologues behind the movement are elevating small changes into pseudo-doctrinal issues that have a tendency to lead to schism. The Orthodox churches have fractured over the centuries over calendar related issues, for example. It's fundamentally traditionalism for traditionalism's sake, which is a little ironic because in many respects the Novus Ordo reverts the mass to an older form more similar to the practices of the church over a millennia ago, as well as more similar in some respects to Orthodox masses.
If the Latin Mass advocates were serious, they'd engage with the Novus Ordo. For example, seek more uniformity--the Novus Ordo has too many optional variations, which means the mass might have different prayers in one geographic area than another, whereas the Tridentine Mass is more uniform. (See, e.g., https://lms.org.uk/missals) The fact they don't betrays some of the underlying motivations and dynamics.
Another aspect mostly unrelated to the mass itself was the Second Vatican Council deemphasisizing the role of clerics and religious--nuns, religious sisters, etc. That's a whole 'nother thing, but it's a significant factor behind the movement. It's far more understandable, but again can be addressed directly, without the subterfuge.
All institutional religions struggle with the tension between traditionalists and reformers; it's a form of politics. What has made the Roman Catholic church almost singularly unique has been it's ability to hold together so many people across diverse cultures and geographies. What's playing out now has played out many times before, though obviously the Roman Church has not always been successful at avoiding schism. Notably, though, it continues to keep in mind undoing previous schisms, and some choices made by the Second Vatican Council were focused on reconciliation, both with Protestant but also Orthodox churches. For example, the change in biblical readings seems to have been aimed at Protestantism--the readings in the US are coordinated through a group that includes representatives from, IIRC, Methodists and Episcopalians. Being less doctrinaire about some of the prayers in the Tridentine Mass was a way to affirm the validity of Orthodox rites.
It's only stylish because of the imagined qualities of prestige vested in a language you're not fluent in. It's the same as how you get English-speaking people realising how cringe-inducing anime dialogue really is when they hear it in English instead of Japanese, and then championing "the only REAL way of consuming anime is in Japanese dub!", not realising the Japanese used in that is also extremely cringey.
People finding the mass somehow less holy and sacramental when celebrated in their native tongue need to reflect on their own perspectives on what makes something holy.
No, the Tridentine (Latin mass) has many other qualities aside from just being in Latin that make it pretty spectacular compared to the Novus Ordo (post Vatican II) mass. You should find a church that does it near you, it's really incredible and quite unlike what you're used to if you've only ever experienced the modern mass.
I'm not Catholic but everyone should attend Latin mass at least once just as an artistic experience.
> You should find a church that does it near you, it's really incredible and quite unlike what you're used to if you've only ever experienced the modern mass.
Flying through the air is a remarkable thing, and people used to dress up for it. But as prices dropped it has become (in many parts of the world) the equivalent of a bus service, and people dress the same was for a flight as they do as going to (say) Walmart.
If you do something often enough it can stop being special:
Oh I've been to Tridentine masses. I'm a church organist. I literally "play" a part in liturgies.
I don't really see that much of a difference to be honest. A lot of people make a big fuss out of the details but the shape of the liturgy as a whole is practically the same.
I think people regularly attending the mass in Latin, also understand it. Latin is able to just capture the meaning and relation of things much better, than other languages, there is an importance and brevity to expressions, that other language just don't have. Sometimes I wonder whether Latin was actually designed, but of course it was shaped through the millennia.
I find (on average) the Japanese VA to be much better then the English VA, also if you know Japanese, yes the dialogue may still be cringy but you aren't having to deal with translators adding/changing things.
Though the mass introduced with Vatican II had a certain number of differences with the previous, Latin mass. Also while the Society of Saint Pius X excision still exists (and looking at their recent decision, will continue to be split from Rome's authority), I'd say that the majority of parishes celebrating the previous mass are under Rome's authority.
The church Latin used in “the Latin Mass” is relatively simple and pretty easy to learn; and it’s very rare to find one that does the readings and homily in Latin; most of those are in English (or the local language) even at an FSSP parish.
Of course if it’s “really” done in the ancient way then it’s done at such a high speed that you need five or six Jesuits and advanced recording equipment to even figure out what is being said. ;)
I recall some of the Orthodox denominations still do mass in Latin. I visited an Antiochian Orthodox Church for a class where this was the case. I think (it has been a long while) the key phrase you'd look for is 'Western Rite'.
Antiochian (eastern rite) and Assyrian Orthodox both do at least some of their masses in Aramaic, which can be interesting, though there may be a mix of others as well (note that Assyrian is fully independent, whereas Antiochian is in full communion with the broader Easter Orthodox church).
"Western Rite" would be those that adopted Latin or local western languages and traditions- think organs or other musical instruments, unleavened bread, crossing yourself from left to right, etc. The Catholic and Protestant churches are like this, along with a relatively small number of Orthodox churches. "Eastern Rite" are those that follow the Eastern Orthodox traditions, chanting the divine liturgies in older languages, no musical instrumentation, leavened bread, crossing yourself from right to left, etc.
Some Eastern Orthodox use (for all dialogue, they do celebrate mass) a language that's now only referred to as Church Slavonic. [1] Though going down this tangent I can't help but think of that Emo Phillips skit on religion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANNX_XiuA78
Latin (and other "old" languages) can still be found in various ways and places, though that starts to get deep into it, as the "New Catholic Mass" can be said in any language, one of which is Latin.
While I've never been to a mass with the homily in Latin, I've had a few with the readings in Latin (including Monday's mass two days ago), which always annoys me a little because it's immediately followed by the translation in the local language.
Personally I prefer the Latin mass, but one change I'd like to see would be for all the texts for that day to be read in the local language, not just the Epistle and Gospel (among other changes).
Latin is a very regular language and has tons of ties to words in other modern languages. I can't speak Latin, but I'm able to follow the mass and orations just fine. It's really not too difficult when you hear it so often, and the amount of words is limited to the same things, that are then the same in other Romance languages.
Latin was the standard language of the Roman-Catholic Mass until the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s. The current form of the Mass in national languages was formalized in 1970.
As a side note I do think Latin language should be become the official language of the EU. It's dead so
- its a compromise for all member staes
- you can change as you like
- it was used millennials as a law language so it fits
I think that is a reason the catholic Church still uses it for things like papal encyclicals. It puts different groups on a more equal footing.
Far more people understand it than things like Esperanto. Quite a lot of people know it a bit. I did it at school. My kids learned some (their choice to do it up to GCSE level).
That said, in practice, English is the international language. It is what is most likely to be used at an international conference in most fields, or when people with two different native languages speak.
English is the international language now. About a century ago, the lingua franca of the technological world was German. Half of my father's university text books were in German, pretty much all of mine were in English. Things can (and do) change.
Except now the whole world is in a common meme pool. Thanks to the internet, Metcalfe’s Law applies to languages globally. China may stave it off for a while by firewalling its population... but the rest of the world won't care.
It's not going to change again. Not even if the US and UK both sank into the ocean.
There are large number of people in China learning English. While China might firewall some things, learning languages does not seem to be one of them.
> Not even if the US and UK both sank into the ocean.
I think its likely that list greatly undercounts the number of people who speak English as a first language because of difficulties around the data about things such people who are bilingual and (cultural, not necessarily on the part of the people conducting surveys) assumptions about ethnicity and language, sources of numbers etc.
> that is a reason the catholic Church still uses it for things like papal encyclicals.
Nah, it's just because that particular institution tries very hard to be internally consistent, for historical reasons. They immediately publish translations of such documents into "common" languages as well, and that's what non-clerics will actually read.
Among the constructed languages that I have seen, I believe that Interlingua was the closest to how a language that could replace English as the international language should be.
I disagree with some grammatical choices made for Interlingua, but in any case it had a simple grammar and the vocabulary was well chosen among the words that are common to the greatest number of European languages. Thus I could read and understand Interlingua without knowing anything about it before that.
Interlingua has a vocabulary bias towards Romance languages, but that is due to the fact that Romance words, mostly coming from Latin or French, are also widespread in English, and also in other language groups like Germanic or Slavic, while much less Germanic or Slavic words are found in languages from other groups. Therefore when selecting the words that are found in most European languages, there are more Romance words than from the other groups.
The EU has already started expanding to countries whose prestigious classical language was Greek, not Latin, so Latin would no longer look like a compromise but favoritism towards Western Europe.
Latin still had some prestige in the east of Europe. I was surprised to learn recently that Vladimir Lenin read Roman classics in the original for enjoyment.
> Latin language should be become the official language of the EU
It would be more practical, if everyone spoke the same language, but the EU does deliberately not want that. The EU wants to preserve language and culture of its member states and regions. "United in Diversity" is an important idea of the EU.
I think the emphasis is on official. That is, it would function as the common language of administration, communication, diplomacy, etc. (i.e., lingua franca), but it wouldn't replace vernacular languages. This was the norm centuries ago in Europe.
One advantage of it being "dead" is that the meanings of terms are much more stable. They don't undergo the usual slippage and mutation of spoken languages. This advantage would be lost if it were to replace existing vernacular languages.
Parts of the EU say that, then at other times other parts act inconsistently with it. I was just at a meeting of an EU body where it was emphasized that, when considering the language of European patents written in English, courts would deliberately interpret the text as having been written by a native English speaker, even when it was clear that the author was a native speaker of a different EU language, for example, in cases where the author was clearly following a grammatical convention of their native language (eg, in comma placement) that might be awkward or ambiguous in English.
While that might make sense from a legal standpoint, it seems like it makes it risky to hire patent lawyers in Europe who are not native English speakers, which in turn, along with many other similar inconsistencies, does in practice create an EU-preferred language.
One nice thing is that the Polish church records are in Latin (with Latinized names), so I've been able to find and read birth/baptismal records for my wife's ancestors from the 1800s.
This phenomenon is well explained in ``God's Playground: A History of Poland'' by Norman Davies, which I am currently reading/listening to. But historically Latin was the lingua franca that time, and Polish people who wrote were always educated. So no other possibility back day I'd say...
Yes, Latin was indeed the lingua franca of Europe then, but the situation is even more interesting here.
1. Poland at the time was an expansive, multi-ethnic state, and while Polish gained increasing dominance as the lingua franca of the state (other languages of the state administration included German and Ruthenian), Latin was for a long time the lingua franca even just within the Polish state itself.
2. Unlike other countries where education was concentrated exclusively in cities, Poland also had a dense network of parish schools that diffused knowledge of Latin among even the rural nobility and town-dwelling population. Later, there was also a network of Jesuit colleges that followed the Ratio Studiorum which included extensive education in Latin and made an elite education accessible not just to wealthy magnates, but to poorer nobles as well. Recall that the Polish szlachta alone comprised on average about 11% of the population, compared to the corresponding 1-2% in France or England.
3. Because of Poland's republican style of government, public speaking, oratory and debate were essential for political participation. This was all carried out in Latin. Sarmatian culture also saw the Res Publica Poloniae as a "spiritual successor" of Rome and saw the Latin language as part of its identity. Furthermore, during the era of the elected monarchs, kings were not always fluent or able to speak in Polish, but they would have known Latin.
What is strange, that medical matters are mostly translated to Polish, while when I watch medical shows on TV I see that US still tends to use Latin there.
Similar thing for species names, not sure where I've seen it.
A side note from Polanmd: My professor of Solids State Physics was pretty fluent in both Latin and Greek, which I find quite interesting (it was about ~20 years ago, he was in his 60-70s).
There is a specific medial jargon developed form latin designed to be unambiguous and often intentionally different from lay words is one thing you're hearing in American tv, the other is that many technical words are English words but of latin origin.
I wonder if Latin was spoken and heard when Pavulon/Pancuronium was injected into victims during the same era in Łodź. "Fun fact" - pavulon can be used to execute a death sentence in USA.
The macaronic approach was pretty common everywhere, it's a natural stage of evolution - the old language 'holding on' with specialized terminology that would be pointless to replace with more inefficient expressions. Which is why Latin words and expressions are still deployed every day in legal and scientific conversations around all Western countries.
I'm Polish and my father (boomer generation) attended a boys-only high school, where Latin was part of the mandatory curriculum.
He managed to use it once when we were living in Kuwait and he had to arrange for my sister to get baptized - he knew that there were two missionaries visiting the local Cathedral - one Spanish and the other Polish but as he didn't know who was who, he started the conversation in Latin and of course got an appropriate response.
He didn't know the nationality of the man in front of him as he's never seen the faces of the two before. It was the mid 90s, so it's not like he could easily look that up.
Also he figured it would be rude.
IIRC the wider context is that my dad, not knowing where the priests were at that moment and having no one to ask in the vicinity, went to a confessional as he saw someone there.
Nie widzę problemu z pytaniem o polskiego księdza jeśli wiadomo, że taki znajduje się gdzieś w pobliżu - jeśli to miałoby ułatwić całą sprawę z załatwianiem chrztu. Nie ma w tym niczego niekulturalnego. No chyba, że tata był nauczony padać plackiem przed koloratką - to wtedy to zupełnie inna dyskusja.
Oh look at me, I'm being rude here - talking in Polish. Because that eases the convo.
Because addressing someone in a language they might not know seams rude and entitled and also sparks a kind of helplessness in the other and the situation. Addressing someone in a language he knows is polite and has a likely hood of better success of the topic of the conversation and not drifting into a side quest of determining a way to communicate.
Yea I didn't get this logic either. Why would the Polish person be the one assumed to be speaking Latin but the Spanish (literally a language based on Latin) person not? Who says Spanish people can't learn Latin?
Both priests are assumed to understand Latin. The situation they want to avoid is starting up a conversation with someone in a language they don't know.
So the options are:
1) Use Polish, with the risk of being rude if you happen to speak to the Spanish priest
2) Use Latin and ask "do you speak Polish?", and both the Polish and the Spanish priest will understand.
You could of course argue that it's not so very rude to accidentally try to strike up a conversation with someone in a language they don't know, but apparently Tade0's father thinks it is.
because the assumption is that he wanted the child baptized by a Polish priest.
Could it be he just wanted the child baptized, no matter if it was Spanish or Polish priest? Then, starting with Latin is the way to get a priest's attention.
I even have some medical diagnosis from Poland of a family member in Latin from the early 1990s. Weird elitist way of saying "you have cancer and our healthcare is one big corrupted ruin so you will suffer". The doctor was probably smoking a cigarette while typing it.
Receipts are still formalized in Latin internationally, because you should be able to take it across the world. All plants, diseases and medicaments have standardized Latin terms. What use would be a polish medication, in a country that doesn't speak polish. Au contraire, the assumption, that everyone one the world understands a local language is elitist.
Medical diagnosis in Latin within Polish healthcare system is useless. You'll barely receive any help within this system anyways, and certainly not receive any constructive help outside of it. As a bonus in the pre-internet era, nobody around knew the cause of death because it was written down in some fossil language. Latin language was used as some kind of legalization of incompetence and corruption.
> Medical diagnosis in Latin within Polish healthcare system is useless.
Maybe it's unusual, but it's hardly unusual. If there is a doctor who doesn't know the proper name of treatment and disease, I would highly question how he got to be a doctor in the first place.
Also you wouldn't likely understand a lot of terminology of other subjects, that hardly means it's useless, but rather very important for them to competently work in their subject.
> As a bonus in the pre-internet era, nobody around knew the cause of death
Are you just trolling?? A dictionary is hardly inaccessible. You can also just ask. Due you also think pilots should stop gossip in that weird military lingo all the time?
> Latin language was used as some kind of legalization of incompetence and corruption.
Knowing the proper terminology of your subject is the sign of incompetence and corruption. Sure.
> Are you just trolling?? A dictionary is hardly inaccessible. You can also just ask. Due you also think pilots should stop gossip in that weird military lingo all the time?
I'm absolutely not trolling, I'm deadly serious. Good luck decrypting Latin with no experience and a paper dictionary. Even nowadays it's 100 EUR for 5 minutes of "just asking" a doctor. Back then it was an envelope with equivalent.
You get this when you were there, so you could have asked then. I fail to see your problem. You are lumping in potentially valid problem with subject expert using subject terminology. If you want to know what the doctors write in doctor to doctor communication, ask them, lookup in a book, learn it yourself or now-a-days just search it on the internet. I don't know what subject you work in, hence I don't want to give an example, but I bet your clients/costumers also don't understand every term, that you happen to use. That's ok, that's why they are paying you. If understanding a subject wouldn't need effort you wouldn't need to pay anyone, you would just do it yourself.
I remember reading 17th century letters from Dutch diplomats. They used French to write back home- except when they talked about money. Such matters required a higher form of communication.
There's a lot of french in tolstoy too, and I believe most of the dialog can be inferred to be in french but is in russian for literary reasons. French was the daily home language of the russian imperial aristocracy. They spoke russian with an accent.
Nabokov was famously raised trilingual in Russian, English, and French by his Russian aristocratic family.
Lingua Franca, like literally. French used to be the language of diplomacy.
Lingua franca actually comes from the Mediterranean Lingua Franca [1], which was mostly derived from Northern Italian languages, not French. French eventually became the "lingua franca," but it wasn't widespread (or even clearly defined) when that term started being used.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Lingua_Franca
My grandfather emigrated from Vilnius (was polish at the time) to the USA as a teenager and managed to find a church that did their mass in Latin, and still does to this day. I assume he understood it but I'm not sure - he was well-educated and spoke a few languages.
Giving the mass in Latin wasn't (generally) done because people understood Latin, but because of a traditionalist sense. The Second Vatican Council stated (among other things) that the mass could be done in other languages apart from Latin, and that it was a good thing to use local languages, so people could understand it better.
After that Council some excisions appeared, like the Society of Saint Pius X, that reclaimed the old ways of giving mass, in Latin, (and, IIRC, with the deacon giving his back to the people, not looking at them), and said there was "a moral and theological crisis in the Catholic Church".
Or people like the Palmarian Catholic Church in Spain, saying they have the authentic Pope, and the one in Rome is an Antipope. They were a scam for pulling money from their believers, and their "Pope" kept spending money on booze and expensive cars. They still exist.
Historically Latin was also a common international language. Educated people could understand Latin across much of Europe. Not so great for the majority of people, of course. The article seems to indicate that in some places it was pretty widely understood.
I think some rites of the church did use other languages such as Syriac.
I knew about SSPX but not the Palmarians. They seem to be even odder and a cult. Interesting in the same way I find conspiracy theories interesting, so thanks.
Not just Europe. Well into relatively modern history educated individuals in America were expected to have fluency in Latin and frequently Greek as well. This [1] Harvard admission exam from 1869 immediately comes to mind. Applicants were expected to be able to pass that test, and the overwhelming majority did.
[1] - https://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/education/harvard...
The classical school movement in America is growing quite rapidly, and so maybe we start to see it again?
My kids at least are all learning Latin, and later, Greek.
In Spain both are still taught in the standard high-school curriculum.
Not everyone takes those classes of course, but Latin is one of the core optatives in the humanities path, it can be chosen in the university entrance exam as one of the core tests, and many students do pick it.
It's not really taught as a foreign language though, it is used to teach fundamental concepts in linguistic analysis and translation, and it can be a legitimately valuable foundation to have a strong general literacy across romance languages.
I'm not sure how common it is elsewhere, but Roman law also makes up a non-trivial fraction of the compulsory curriculum in the first years of studying law at university. Most of the concepts are still relevant, it's what all modern legal systems are founded on.
I remember that a good friend of mine somehow avoided studying maths for the last four years of high-school by choosing all the alternatives, which included both Latin and ancient Greek. He was and still is a fantastic programmer despite hating maths though, obsessed with Linux distros from early teens.
What's called "Roman law" in Europe derives from the Justinian Code, which was nominally a codification of but in many respects a radical reinterpretation of late roman law. Prior to the Justinian Code, and especially Scholastic era glosses, Roman law was arguably more like a very rigid style of common law; that is, requiring judges to hew closely to precedent rather than applying abstract legal principles.
It was the rediscovery of the Justinian Code during the Scholastic age which kickstarted a blossoming of legal theory in Europe. But they didn't understand that the Justinian Code wasn't a reflection of Roman law so much as a reflection of Emperor Justinian's reforms, which were in part an attempt to reassert control over and simplify the legal system.
Give him this book, it's pre-University, from the Algebra basics to Calculus. https://biblioteca.empresainteligente.com/resources/bibliote...
It's in Spanish, proof based, but not as hard as Spivak. If he is good at programming he must be good at logic and thus if he understands Math as something to apply rules, he we will ace the book.
He can use Maxima to locally solve the equations. Forget LLM's, these will just make him dumber. Maxima to test the solutions, pen and paper:
https://maxima.sourceforge.io/
Docs in Spanish https://maxima.sourceforge.io/docs/manual/es/maxima.html
More books, "Primeros Pasos" it's a good one to start with and then just use the Maxima manual as the reference:
https://maxima.sourceforge.io/es/documentation.html
The Windows version comes with everything in the installer. Linux distros have it in its repos, install "wxmaxima" and "maxima-doc" for documentation. It's weights very little, less than 100MB. Install Gnuplot too for plots/charts/graphs (altough it might come preinstalled for Windows).
And a Math background, even a basic one will be extremeley helpful while coding.
Most schools in Spain thaught us Math as methods to blindly apply formulae based on rote memorization and everyone was just clueless.
> Most schools in Spain thaught us Math as methods to blindly apply formulae based on rote memorization and everyone was just clueless.
Common in many countries. Its a problem in the UK and getting worse.
Classical greek and modern greek are quite different
Probably not. They were not learning it for funsies, but because it was the business language. English took its place now. If English goes away, it will be replaced by a language by another dominant business power.
Yeah I agree.
Still would be very valuable to be able to read works that shaped western civilization in their original language, since a lot of nuance is lost translating to English. Just see how many crazy readings of the Bible people have (american evangelicals particularly ) because English can’t express the original idea in Greek well enough.
Audentes fortuna iuvat!
I was thinking of rather earlier in history, but you are right.
My grandfather was studied Latin (and Greek) in school in Sri Lanka.
Indeed, it was also the lingua franca (pun intended) of early science for quite a long time.
Latin was still part of the mandatory curriculum in french schools, at least when I was there. Didn’t make french kids bilingual (no more than english courses), but it would be safe to assume the average man in the street has at least some vague notions of latin.
Besides the language being Latin vs local languages, there is one huge difference people don't know about. The Tridentine Mass has the priest facing toward the altar and the tabernacle, this is called "ad orientem". In "modern" day post-Second-Vatican-Council mass, the priest typically speaks the local language and faces the congregation.
The modern mass can be done ad orientem. The switch of orientation was only permitted, not required, in the Novus Ordo.
Most of the changes people associate with the Novus Ordo were completely optional and often not even expected to have become so common. This is why all the popes have been exasperated, to varying extents, with the Latin Mass movement. Literally nothing prevents dioceses from celebrating the Novus Ordo mass in Latin, ad orientem, chanting, etc.
Why would the Papacy be exasperated with the Latin Mass movement if it's merely celebrating one of the allowable options?
(Genuine question, I'm sure I lack all context.)
What's colloquially called the Latin Mass is the Tridentine Mass, which among other things uses a different calendar, including different biblical readings each week (a smaller selection of biblical passages than the Novus Ordo uses). So it's not just a variation of the Novus Ordo, though the Novus Ordo could be performed in a way that satisfies the vast majority of traditional-minded parishioners. It's exasperating because certain ideologues behind the movement are elevating small changes into pseudo-doctrinal issues that have a tendency to lead to schism. The Orthodox churches have fractured over the centuries over calendar related issues, for example. It's fundamentally traditionalism for traditionalism's sake, which is a little ironic because in many respects the Novus Ordo reverts the mass to an older form more similar to the practices of the church over a millennia ago, as well as more similar in some respects to Orthodox masses.
If the Latin Mass advocates were serious, they'd engage with the Novus Ordo. For example, seek more uniformity--the Novus Ordo has too many optional variations, which means the mass might have different prayers in one geographic area than another, whereas the Tridentine Mass is more uniform. (See, e.g., https://lms.org.uk/missals) The fact they don't betrays some of the underlying motivations and dynamics.
Another aspect mostly unrelated to the mass itself was the Second Vatican Council deemphasisizing the role of clerics and religious--nuns, religious sisters, etc. That's a whole 'nother thing, but it's a significant factor behind the movement. It's far more understandable, but again can be addressed directly, without the subterfuge.
All institutional religions struggle with the tension between traditionalists and reformers; it's a form of politics. What has made the Roman Catholic church almost singularly unique has been it's ability to hold together so many people across diverse cultures and geographies. What's playing out now has played out many times before, though obviously the Roman Church has not always been successful at avoiding schism. Notably, though, it continues to keep in mind undoing previous schisms, and some choices made by the Second Vatican Council were focused on reconciliation, both with Protestant but also Orthodox churches. For example, the change in biblical readings seems to have been aimed at Protestantism--the readings in the US are coordinated through a group that includes representatives from, IIRC, Methodists and Episcopalians. Being less doctrinaire about some of the prayers in the Tridentine Mass was a way to affirm the validity of Orthodox rites.
Very interesting, thank you for the thoughtful explanation!
That's it, I wasn't sure if I was imagining the "priest not looking at you" thing...
You can't deny it, mass is much more stylish in Latin ;)
It's only stylish because of the imagined qualities of prestige vested in a language you're not fluent in. It's the same as how you get English-speaking people realising how cringe-inducing anime dialogue really is when they hear it in English instead of Japanese, and then championing "the only REAL way of consuming anime is in Japanese dub!", not realising the Japanese used in that is also extremely cringey.
People finding the mass somehow less holy and sacramental when celebrated in their native tongue need to reflect on their own perspectives on what makes something holy.
No, the Tridentine (Latin mass) has many other qualities aside from just being in Latin that make it pretty spectacular compared to the Novus Ordo (post Vatican II) mass. You should find a church that does it near you, it's really incredible and quite unlike what you're used to if you've only ever experienced the modern mass.
I'm not Catholic but everyone should attend Latin mass at least once just as an artistic experience.
> You should find a church that does it near you, it's really incredible and quite unlike what you're used to if you've only ever experienced the modern mass.
Flying through the air is a remarkable thing, and people used to dress up for it. But as prices dropped it has become (in many parts of the world) the equivalent of a bus service, and people dress the same was for a flight as they do as going to (say) Walmart.
If you do something often enough it can stop being special:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill
Oh I've been to Tridentine masses. I'm a church organist. I literally "play" a part in liturgies.
I don't really see that much of a difference to be honest. A lot of people make a big fuss out of the details but the shape of the liturgy as a whole is practically the same.
I think people regularly attending the mass in Latin, also understand it. Latin is able to just capture the meaning and relation of things much better, than other languages, there is an importance and brevity to expressions, that other language just don't have. Sometimes I wonder whether Latin was actually designed, but of course it was shaped through the millennia.
I find (on average) the Japanese VA to be much better then the English VA, also if you know Japanese, yes the dialogue may still be cringy but you aren't having to deal with translators adding/changing things.
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/just-according-to-keikaku
Yes I know that was fan-sub but it's the first example that comes to mind, I remember some drama from professionals as well.
Though the mass introduced with Vatican II had a certain number of differences with the previous, Latin mass. Also while the Society of Saint Pius X excision still exists (and looking at their recent decision, will continue to be split from Rome's authority), I'd say that the majority of parishes celebrating the previous mass are under Rome's authority.
The church Latin used in “the Latin Mass” is relatively simple and pretty easy to learn; and it’s very rare to find one that does the readings and homily in Latin; most of those are in English (or the local language) even at an FSSP parish.
Of course if it’s “really” done in the ancient way then it’s done at such a high speed that you need five or six Jesuits and advanced recording equipment to even figure out what is being said. ;)
I recall some of the Orthodox denominations still do mass in Latin. I visited an Antiochian Orthodox Church for a class where this was the case. I think (it has been a long while) the key phrase you'd look for is 'Western Rite'.
Antiochian (eastern rite) and Assyrian Orthodox both do at least some of their masses in Aramaic, which can be interesting, though there may be a mix of others as well (note that Assyrian is fully independent, whereas Antiochian is in full communion with the broader Easter Orthodox church).
"Western Rite" would be those that adopted Latin or local western languages and traditions- think organs or other musical instruments, unleavened bread, crossing yourself from left to right, etc. The Catholic and Protestant churches are like this, along with a relatively small number of Orthodox churches. "Eastern Rite" are those that follow the Eastern Orthodox traditions, chanting the divine liturgies in older languages, no musical instrumentation, leavened bread, crossing yourself from right to left, etc.
Some Eastern Orthodox use (for all dialogue, they do celebrate mass) a language that's now only referred to as Church Slavonic. [1] Though going down this tangent I can't help but think of that Emo Phillips skit on religion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANNX_XiuA78
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Slavonic
Latin (and other "old" languages) can still be found in various ways and places, though that starts to get deep into it, as the "New Catholic Mass" can be said in any language, one of which is Latin.
While I've never been to a mass with the homily in Latin, I've had a few with the readings in Latin (including Monday's mass two days ago), which always annoys me a little because it's immediately followed by the translation in the local language.
Personally I prefer the Latin mass, but one change I'd like to see would be for all the texts for that day to be read in the local language, not just the Epistle and Gospel (among other changes).
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Latin is a very regular language and has tons of ties to words in other modern languages. I can't speak Latin, but I'm able to follow the mass and orations just fine. It's really not too difficult when you hear it so often, and the amount of words is limited to the same things, that are then the same in other Romance languages.
Latin was the standard language of the Roman-Catholic Mass until the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s. The current form of the Mass in national languages was formalized in 1970.
As a side note I do think Latin language should be become the official language of the EU. It's dead so - its a compromise for all member staes - you can change as you like - it was used millennials as a law language so it fits
I think that is a reason the catholic Church still uses it for things like papal encyclicals. It puts different groups on a more equal footing.
Far more people understand it than things like Esperanto. Quite a lot of people know it a bit. I did it at school. My kids learned some (their choice to do it up to GCSE level).
That said, in practice, English is the international language. It is what is most likely to be used at an international conference in most fields, or when people with two different native languages speak.
English is the international language now. About a century ago, the lingua franca of the technological world was German. Half of my father's university text books were in German, pretty much all of mine were in English. Things can (and do) change.
Except now the whole world is in a common meme pool. Thanks to the internet, Metcalfe’s Law applies to languages globally. China may stave it off for a while by firewalling its population... but the rest of the world won't care.
It's not going to change again. Not even if the US and UK both sank into the ocean.
There are large number of people in China learning English. While China might firewall some things, learning languages does not seem to be one of them.
> Not even if the US and UK both sank into the ocean.
Lots of English speakers in other countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-s...
I think its likely that list greatly undercounts the number of people who speak English as a first language because of difficulties around the data about things such people who are bilingual and (cultural, not necessarily on the part of the people conducting surveys) assumptions about ethnicity and language, sources of numbers etc.
> that is a reason the catholic Church still uses it for things like papal encyclicals.
Nah, it's just because that particular institution tries very hard to be internally consistent, for historical reasons. They immediately publish translations of such documents into "common" languages as well, and that's what non-clerics will actually read.
I said a reason, not the reason. Both can be true.
English is a living language so it's a bad choice (at least from my criteria ;) )
Yes, agreed. That was intended to be a BTW and Latin is probably the best choice on your criteria.
Or Esperanto. But Spanish or Italian would also be great as they sound so nice.
Esperanto being created by L.L. Zamenhof ... a Polish Ashkenazi Jew. Full circle!
Among the constructed languages that I have seen, I believe that Interlingua was the closest to how a language that could replace English as the international language should be.
I disagree with some grammatical choices made for Interlingua, but in any case it had a simple grammar and the vocabulary was well chosen among the words that are common to the greatest number of European languages. Thus I could read and understand Interlingua without knowing anything about it before that.
Interlingua has a vocabulary bias towards Romance languages, but that is due to the fact that Romance words, mostly coming from Latin or French, are also widespread in English, and also in other language groups like Germanic or Slavic, while much less Germanic or Slavic words are found in languages from other groups. Therefore when selecting the words that are found in most European languages, there are more Romance words than from the other groups.
The EU has already started expanding to countries whose prestigious classical language was Greek, not Latin, so Latin would no longer look like a compromise but favoritism towards Western Europe.
Latin still had some prestige in the east of Europe. I was surprised to learn recently that Vladimir Lenin read Roman classics in the original for enjoyment.
> Latin language should be become the official language of the EU
It would be more practical, if everyone spoke the same language, but the EU does deliberately not want that. The EU wants to preserve language and culture of its member states and regions. "United in Diversity" is an important idea of the EU.
I think the emphasis is on official. That is, it would function as the common language of administration, communication, diplomacy, etc. (i.e., lingua franca), but it wouldn't replace vernacular languages. This was the norm centuries ago in Europe.
One advantage of it being "dead" is that the meanings of terms are much more stable. They don't undergo the usual slippage and mutation of spoken languages. This advantage would be lost if it were to replace existing vernacular languages.
It certainly also sounds cool to me, but it has the disadvantage, that you need to invent a lot of terms for concepts invented in the last 200 years.
Another advantage of a dead language. You can just change word meanings if the administration needs it.
Parts of the EU say that, then at other times other parts act inconsistently with it. I was just at a meeting of an EU body where it was emphasized that, when considering the language of European patents written in English, courts would deliberately interpret the text as having been written by a native English speaker, even when it was clear that the author was a native speaker of a different EU language, for example, in cases where the author was clearly following a grammatical convention of their native language (eg, in comma placement) that might be awkward or ambiguous in English.
While that might make sense from a legal standpoint, it seems like it makes it risky to hire patent lawyers in Europe who are not native English speakers, which in turn, along with many other similar inconsistencies, does in practice create an EU-preferred language.
nah I disagree. Because a dead language helps preserving the living languages of the nations.
One nice thing is that the Polish church records are in Latin (with Latinized names), so I've been able to find and read birth/baptismal records for my wife's ancestors from the 1800s.
This phenomenon is well explained in ``God's Playground: A History of Poland'' by Norman Davies, which I am currently reading/listening to. But historically Latin was the lingua franca that time, and Polish people who wrote were always educated. So no other possibility back day I'd say...
Yes, Latin was indeed the lingua franca of Europe then, but the situation is even more interesting here.
1. Poland at the time was an expansive, multi-ethnic state, and while Polish gained increasing dominance as the lingua franca of the state (other languages of the state administration included German and Ruthenian), Latin was for a long time the lingua franca even just within the Polish state itself.
2. Unlike other countries where education was concentrated exclusively in cities, Poland also had a dense network of parish schools that diffused knowledge of Latin among even the rural nobility and town-dwelling population. Later, there was also a network of Jesuit colleges that followed the Ratio Studiorum which included extensive education in Latin and made an elite education accessible not just to wealthy magnates, but to poorer nobles as well. Recall that the Polish szlachta alone comprised on average about 11% of the population, compared to the corresponding 1-2% in France or England.
3. Because of Poland's republican style of government, public speaking, oratory and debate were essential for political participation. This was all carried out in Latin. Sarmatian culture also saw the Res Publica Poloniae as a "spiritual successor" of Rome and saw the Latin language as part of its identity. Furthermore, during the era of the elected monarchs, kings were not always fluent or able to speak in Polish, but they would have known Latin.
What is strange, that medical matters are mostly translated to Polish, while when I watch medical shows on TV I see that US still tends to use Latin there.
Similar thing for species names, not sure where I've seen it.
A side note from Polanmd: My professor of Solids State Physics was pretty fluent in both Latin and Greek, which I find quite interesting (it was about ~20 years ago, he was in his 60-70s).
There is a specific medial jargon developed form latin designed to be unambiguous and often intentionally different from lay words is one thing you're hearing in American tv, the other is that many technical words are English words but of latin origin.
My sister had her diagnosis described in Latin in the early 90s by CZMP hospital in Łódź
I wonder if Latin was spoken and heard when Pavulon/Pancuronium was injected into victims during the same era in Łodź. "Fun fact" - pavulon can be used to execute a death sentence in USA.
Oh damn... I'd guess they had their own "industry-specific" term for Pavulon.
There's English article on Wikipedia about this particular topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_Hunters?useskin=vector
The macaronic approach was pretty common everywhere, it's a natural stage of evolution - the old language 'holding on' with specialized terminology that would be pointless to replace with more inefficient expressions. Which is why Latin words and expressions are still deployed every day in legal and scientific conversations around all Western countries.
I'm Polish and my father (boomer generation) attended a boys-only high school, where Latin was part of the mandatory curriculum.
He managed to use it once when we were living in Kuwait and he had to arrange for my sister to get baptized - he knew that there were two missionaries visiting the local Cathedral - one Spanish and the other Polish but as he didn't know who was who, he started the conversation in Latin and of course got an appropriate response.
I’m confused. Why not start the conversation in Polish?
He didn't know the nationality of the man in front of him as he's never seen the faces of the two before. It was the mid 90s, so it's not like he could easily look that up.
Also he figured it would be rude.
IIRC the wider context is that my dad, not knowing where the priests were at that moment and having no one to ask in the vicinity, went to a confessional as he saw someone there.
Nie widzę problemu z pytaniem o polskiego księdza jeśli wiadomo, że taki znajduje się gdzieś w pobliżu - jeśli to miałoby ułatwić całą sprawę z załatwianiem chrztu. Nie ma w tym niczego niekulturalnego. No chyba, że tata był nauczony padać plackiem przed koloratką - to wtedy to zupełnie inna dyskusja.
Oh look at me, I'm being rude here - talking in Polish. Because that eases the convo.
But why wouldn't he start the conversation in Polish? If the priest responds, he is Polish. If he doesn't, he is Spanish.
Because addressing someone in a language they might not know seams rude and entitled and also sparks a kind of helplessness in the other and the situation. Addressing someone in a language he knows is polite and has a likely hood of better success of the topic of the conversation and not drifting into a side quest of determining a way to communicate.
Yea I didn't get this logic either. Why would the Polish person be the one assumed to be speaking Latin but the Spanish (literally a language based on Latin) person not? Who says Spanish people can't learn Latin?
Both priests are assumed to understand Latin. The situation they want to avoid is starting up a conversation with someone in a language they don't know.
So the options are:
1) Use Polish, with the risk of being rude if you happen to speak to the Spanish priest
2) Use Latin and ask "do you speak Polish?", and both the Polish and the Spanish priest will understand.
You could of course argue that it's not so very rude to accidentally try to strike up a conversation with someone in a language they don't know, but apparently Tade0's father thinks it is.
because the assumption is that he wanted the child baptized by a Polish priest.
Could it be he just wanted the child baptized, no matter if it was Spanish or Polish priest? Then, starting with Latin is the way to get a priest's attention.
I even have some medical diagnosis from Poland of a family member in Latin from the early 1990s. Weird elitist way of saying "you have cancer and our healthcare is one big corrupted ruin so you will suffer". The doctor was probably smoking a cigarette while typing it.
Receipts are still formalized in Latin internationally, because you should be able to take it across the world. All plants, diseases and medicaments have standardized Latin terms. What use would be a polish medication, in a country that doesn't speak polish. Au contraire, the assumption, that everyone one the world understands a local language is elitist.
Medical diagnosis in Latin within Polish healthcare system is useless. You'll barely receive any help within this system anyways, and certainly not receive any constructive help outside of it. As a bonus in the pre-internet era, nobody around knew the cause of death because it was written down in some fossil language. Latin language was used as some kind of legalization of incompetence and corruption.
> Medical diagnosis in Latin within Polish healthcare system is useless.
Maybe it's unusual, but it's hardly unusual. If there is a doctor who doesn't know the proper name of treatment and disease, I would highly question how he got to be a doctor in the first place.
Also you wouldn't likely understand a lot of terminology of other subjects, that hardly means it's useless, but rather very important for them to competently work in their subject.
> As a bonus in the pre-internet era, nobody around knew the cause of death
Are you just trolling?? A dictionary is hardly inaccessible. You can also just ask. Due you also think pilots should stop gossip in that weird military lingo all the time?
> Latin language was used as some kind of legalization of incompetence and corruption.
Knowing the proper terminology of your subject is the sign of incompetence and corruption. Sure.
> Are you just trolling?? A dictionary is hardly inaccessible. You can also just ask. Due you also think pilots should stop gossip in that weird military lingo all the time?
I'm absolutely not trolling, I'm deadly serious. Good luck decrypting Latin with no experience and a paper dictionary. Even nowadays it's 100 EUR for 5 minutes of "just asking" a doctor. Back then it was an envelope with equivalent.
You get this when you were there, so you could have asked then. I fail to see your problem. You are lumping in potentially valid problem with subject expert using subject terminology. If you want to know what the doctors write in doctor to doctor communication, ask them, lookup in a book, learn it yourself or now-a-days just search it on the internet. I don't know what subject you work in, hence I don't want to give an example, but I bet your clients/costumers also don't understand every term, that you happen to use. That's ok, that's why they are paying you. If understanding a subject wouldn't need effort you wouldn't need to pay anyone, you would just do it yourself.
You certainly never have dealt with a doctor in Polish healthcare system. It's never as simple a just asking. Consider yourself lucky.
You can get a diagnosis, without getting told the diagnosis?