Bambaataa was a serial sexual abuser and everybody in the rap scene knew it back in the day (early 90s) same way everyone knew about R. Kelly (I ran a rap program on the radio in 92-94).
That's sadly a recurring pattern with Black American pioneers.
For example a lot of early bluesmen are known to be highly problematic and the completely clean ones are rare (Howlin' Wolf is one).
I've been recently experimenting with rape as a structuring force in sociology and anthropology (when I say "experimenting", I'm mean as a work hypothesis) and I'm now thinking it's more determinative at scale than murder. After all murder takes someone out of the pool.
I wouldn't go around DJing an abuser's music but I find it insufficient to stop at signaling about it and cancelling. That's where the work begins, not where it ends.
Stopping at jailing abusers will force them to hide better and prevent the more cowardly ones from acting, but it won't stop before the process behind it is fully understood, internalized and treated.
I don't know the story behind it but there's a very high chance Afrika Bambaataa was abused as a child.
Damn. As someone half the world away I just knew him as a pioneer, news didn't travel enough to know anything about the personal lives of artists in the early 00s.
No idea about the allegations until now, which means the news doubly suck.
I can imagine scenarios where decent people in tough environments might be compelled to join a gang, rob, or even murder. That doesn’t make it ok, but it makes it at least understandable.
I’m unable to imagine a reason why decent people might be compelled to rape children, let alone serially.
There is the position, of course, that a sexually abused child that reaches teen years or adulthood is no longer a "decent person" .. which is an interesting transition to dwell on.
That makes it more understandable, but he lost a trial that said he was raping a child when he was 38 years old.
Someone abused as a child who does sketchy things in their early 20s is tragic. Someone doing the same when they’re nearly 40 is a whole lot harder to dismiss. Like, you don’t make it to that age without hearing a lot of people along the way saying not to rape children.
Oh, please, don't think I'm making any excuses here .. but I was around and about the evidence management side of a five deep dive into institutional childhood abuse ... the various things that went down tend to explain a lot of early following behaviour once some kind of distance from early abuse is made.
You're right to flag ongoing and persistent shitty behaviour as unacceptable - even assigning blame there gets problematic as there absolutely is an element of "would they be less bad had they had more support on escape", but you can't be giving a pass forever.
Bloody Trolley problems .. this is one of several areas with no good choices, no easy solutions.
If only human behavior was that simple. The DSM-5 is filled with diseases of the mind. Choice often isn’t as cut and dry as we would like to believe.
No one wakes up and thinks “I want to suffer today of _____.” [1] AndI want others to suffer along with me.
That said, perhaps the universe is binary? Perhaps evil, pure evil does exist? Perhaps there’s no to stopping evil than “just say no”? It’s hard to say.
There is also the theory that it serves as a reenactment of one’s own abuse. Trying to find peace and return to safety by replaying the scene, this time not as helpless victim but perpetrator: in control.
Victims of sexual abuse thus often are haunted by “fantasies” of abuse but avoiding the victim position; the trap is to identify with the fantasies. All too often, they’ve been told it is their fault, they wanted it etc, so the imagined replay “proves the original perpetrator right”.
The only way to break the circle seems to be to fully go into the fantasy and process the victim position, with support of a well-meaning presence (typically a therapist but in another reality it could be friends or family).
Not a reasonable question. All my information was third hand at best.
We didn't play Bambaataa, R Kelly or Tupac (convicted rapist) records. That's about all a radio station could do. Can't state what legally speaking were merely rumors on the air without facing problems. All you can do is not support them commercially, which we did.
A friend of mine has worked in TV and film for decades. Many times he has told me about rumoured offenders (typically after they are arrested), but other than avoiding working on productions with them what are his choices? Trying to do a completely ridiculous "citizen's arrest"?
Afrika Bambaataa is a major reason I fell in love with hip hop back around '82. Further, I've always felt "perfect beat" is a much better song than the more popular "planet rock". Back then, "planet rock" was for regular folk, "perfect beat" was for the breakers. Regular folk would be dancing on the floor, just like normal, and then, later in the evening, the DJ would drop "perfect beat" and it was on - specifically, this part: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=229&v=rHQ11l4uiM4 . The dance floor would clear, otherwise you'd catch a foot from some dude spinning around. Good times.
I'm still trying to digest all the s3xual abuse allegations against Bam later in life.
This brings up a point I often ponder: should the records of horrific criminals be cancelled? Consider the two extremes:
A) artist is never played again, no more royalties are paid. Nobody gets to enjoy the music.
B) the artist's estate is sold to a victims compensation trust, that collects, say, $4m/year that gets distributed to victims and charities. You still hear their song occasionally on the radio and gradually forget about their plight over the years.
I fell into a job bussing tables and porting alcohol at a local live music venue when I was 19 and I worked there off and on over seven years.
As much as I love live music after a while it just sort of became a job, but every now and again an incredible musician would come through and I wouldn’t know until I showed up for my shift and I asked my coworkers who was playing that night.
One night I come in and my jaw drops when find out it’s fucking DJ Africa Bambaataa! Now I’m not big into hip hop but I had listened to a few of his albums and I knew his music was phenomenal and I was shocked such a legend was playing in my town.
The crazy part is only like 100 people showed up out of a capacity of like 800 but every single one of those people could dance.
The venue had an old sound booth that was attached to ceiling and was accessible with a rickety old spiral staircase, as it was so slow that night I spent most of my time up there just soaking in that experience.
I’ve seen a lot of live shows in my day but that one stands out.
Issue is not homophobia but grooming and sexual abuse.
French ex rapper Solo mentionned in his book he witnessed and was himself groomed and abused at 17 by Afrika Bambaataa and all Bambaataa's entourage knew about that and just chose to either ignore or even facilitate it. It seemed to have been an open secret within at least NYC hip hop circle and the Zulu Nation in general which chose to ignore and even attack the victims who speaked out.
Bambaataa was a serial sexual abuser and everybody in the rap scene knew it back in the day (early 90s) same way everyone knew about R. Kelly (I ran a rap program on the radio in 92-94).
That's sadly a recurring pattern with Black American pioneers. For example a lot of early bluesmen are known to be highly problematic and the completely clean ones are rare (Howlin' Wolf is one). I've been recently experimenting with rape as a structuring force in sociology and anthropology (when I say "experimenting", I'm mean as a work hypothesis) and I'm now thinking it's more determinative at scale than murder. After all murder takes someone out of the pool.
I wouldn't go around DJing an abuser's music but I find it insufficient to stop at signaling about it and cancelling. That's where the work begins, not where it ends.
Stopping at jailing abusers will force them to hide better and prevent the more cowardly ones from acting, but it won't stop before the process behind it is fully understood, internalized and treated. I don't know the story behind it but there's a very high chance Afrika Bambaataa was abused as a child.
Wow, had no idea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrika_bambaataa#Child_sexual_...
Massively influential guy to hip hop, but what a shame.
this surprised me as well, the more you know the respect for his influence diminishes, really sad.
Damn. As someone half the world away I just knew him as a pioneer, news didn't travel enough to know anything about the personal lives of artists in the early 00s.
No idea about the allegations until now, which means the news doubly suck.
Any tape rips of your show we can listen to?
Imagine if a rap artist was a gang member, armed robber or murderer. That would be even worse, and I would never listen to their music.
I can imagine scenarios where decent people in tough environments might be compelled to join a gang, rob, or even murder. That doesn’t make it ok, but it makes it at least understandable.
I’m unable to imagine a reason why decent people might be compelled to rape children, let alone serially.
Well, if it gets normalised during childhood, then it frequently occurs during teen years and adulthood.
You can see some discussion of that in the Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse (2017)
* https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/final-report
There is the position, of course, that a sexually abused child that reaches teen years or adulthood is no longer a "decent person" .. which is an interesting transition to dwell on.
That makes it more understandable, but he lost a trial that said he was raping a child when he was 38 years old.
Someone abused as a child who does sketchy things in their early 20s is tragic. Someone doing the same when they’re nearly 40 is a whole lot harder to dismiss. Like, you don’t make it to that age without hearing a lot of people along the way saying not to rape children.
Oh, please, don't think I'm making any excuses here .. but I was around and about the evidence management side of a five deep dive into institutional childhood abuse ... the various things that went down tend to explain a lot of early following behaviour once some kind of distance from early abuse is made.
You're right to flag ongoing and persistent shitty behaviour as unacceptable - even assigning blame there gets problematic as there absolutely is an element of "would they be less bad had they had more support on escape", but you can't be giving a pass forever.
Bloody Trolley problems .. this is one of several areas with no good choices, no easy solutions.
If only human behavior was that simple. The DSM-5 is filled with diseases of the mind. Choice often isn’t as cut and dry as we would like to believe.
No one wakes up and thinks “I want to suffer today of _____.” [1] AndI want others to suffer along with me.
That said, perhaps the universe is binary? Perhaps evil, pure evil does exist? Perhaps there’s no to stopping evil than “just say no”? It’s hard to say.
[1] Insert mental, physical a/o spiritual illness here.
There is also the theory that it serves as a reenactment of one’s own abuse. Trying to find peace and return to safety by replaying the scene, this time not as helpless victim but perpetrator: in control.
Victims of sexual abuse thus often are haunted by “fantasies” of abuse but avoiding the victim position; the trap is to identify with the fantasies. All too often, they’ve been told it is their fault, they wanted it etc, so the imagined replay “proves the original perpetrator right”.
The only way to break the circle seems to be to fully go into the fantasy and process the victim position, with support of a well-meaning presence (typically a therapist but in another reality it could be friends or family).
> decent people in tough environments ... murder
You find an excuse for MURDER? You are definitely not a decent person.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
this is not a valid criticism of the point im making
This is exactly the point you're making
Known murderer and robber rap artists are in prison.
What did you do about it at the time?
Not a reasonable question. All my information was third hand at best.
We didn't play Bambaataa, R Kelly or Tupac (convicted rapist) records. That's about all a radio station could do. Can't state what legally speaking were merely rumors on the air without facing problems. All you can do is not support them commercially, which we did.
I’d say it is a reasonable question, with a really good answer.
A friend of mine has worked in TV and film for decades. Many times he has told me about rumoured offenders (typically after they are arrested), but other than avoiding working on productions with them what are his choices? Trying to do a completely ridiculous "citizen's arrest"?
The same thing you did. What sort of question is that?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHQ11l4uiM4
Contemporaneously: World Destruction - Afrika Bambaataa & John Lydon (Released on: 31/12/1984) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoXGMSOIrIs
Afrika Bambaataa is a major reason I fell in love with hip hop back around '82. Further, I've always felt "perfect beat" is a much better song than the more popular "planet rock". Back then, "planet rock" was for regular folk, "perfect beat" was for the breakers. Regular folk would be dancing on the floor, just like normal, and then, later in the evening, the DJ would drop "perfect beat" and it was on - specifically, this part: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=229&v=rHQ11l4uiM4 . The dance floor would clear, otherwise you'd catch a foot from some dude spinning around. Good times.
I'm still trying to digest all the s3xual abuse allegations against Bam later in life.
RIP Bam
> s3xual
This is not TikTok. You can spell the word sexual without fear.
The allegations became public later in his life but the incidents go back to the 80s and 90s, his whole career. Rest In Piss indeed
This brings up a point I often ponder: should the records of horrific criminals be cancelled? Consider the two extremes:
A) artist is never played again, no more royalties are paid. Nobody gets to enjoy the music.
B) the artist's estate is sold to a victims compensation trust, that collects, say, $4m/year that gets distributed to victims and charities. You still hear their song occasionally on the radio and gradually forget about their plight over the years.
Which one brings the victims closer to justice?
This is an incomplete dichotomy. Option a) means the victims never have to hear their abuser's voice again.
Awww. Oldschool bboy music in the 1990s and before.
I got into this guy via this Leftfield collab, it’s a great video: https://youtu.be/KvxbFWY2Hsc sad to hear he was a creep.
Good riddance.
I fell into a job bussing tables and porting alcohol at a local live music venue when I was 19 and I worked there off and on over seven years.
As much as I love live music after a while it just sort of became a job, but every now and again an incredible musician would come through and I wouldn’t know until I showed up for my shift and I asked my coworkers who was playing that night.
One night I come in and my jaw drops when find out it’s fucking DJ Africa Bambaataa! Now I’m not big into hip hop but I had listened to a few of his albums and I knew his music was phenomenal and I was shocked such a legend was playing in my town.
The crazy part is only like 100 people showed up out of a capacity of like 800 but every single one of those people could dance.
The venue had an old sound booth that was attached to ceiling and was accessible with a rickety old spiral staircase, as it was so slow that night I spent most of my time up there just soaking in that experience.
I’ve seen a lot of live shows in my day but that one stands out.
yeah, he was skilled. Got to see him a few years ago.
Hacker news?
Could be discussing his great, ground-breaking music, and instead all I see here is homophobia.
If all you can see is homophobia then maybe you need your perception testing.
Issue is not homophobia but grooming and sexual abuse.
French ex rapper Solo mentionned in his book he witnessed and was himself groomed and abused at 17 by Afrika Bambaataa and all Bambaataa's entourage knew about that and just chose to either ignore or even facilitate it. It seemed to have been an open secret within at least NYC hip hop circle and the Zulu Nation in general which chose to ignore and even attack the victims who speaked out.
Where's this homophobia exactly?