After a bad breakup in 2015, I followed some advice from the socialskills subreddit to “talk to everyone” so that you get better at talking to women you might want to date. The advice was not to only talk to attractive people but everyone. The old man reading a Russian newspaper, the kid on bike doing tricks, people in the elevator.
I do that now and it brings me a lot of joy. Recently while leaving a botanical garden I spoke to a man who was excitedly looking for a few specific plants. He is a botanist (amateur? professional? unclear) and I enjoyed sharing in his passion for a moment. Then I saw a maintenance guy moving with great intention who took a moment to ask me and my family if we had a nice time. We did, and I asked him about the papers in his hand. “Gotta get approval for this purchase request asap.” He said. We talked a bit about how nice it is to work at such a beautiful place.
I highly recommend talking to strangers! People are lovely. Go out and try it.
The "Helping You Not Become Your Parents" commercials (from some insurance company I think) make me sad.
They're basically making fun of people for trying to connect.
I'm in a spot where I don't really bump into strangers much but, as a recovering introvert I've tried to talk to people like this and it feels AMAZING.
Like... irrational levels of amazing vibes.
It's so frustrating seeing my own kids be horrified by it and be hyper-introverted and disdainful of connecting with strangers.
Lessons you learn the hard way -- then fail to pass onto the next generation -- hurt.
> They're basically making fun of people for trying to connect.
I had the same thought. The clueless people turning into their parents are charming and genuine. The life coach guy is kind of a dick.
Reminds me of Apple's "I'm a PC, And I'm a Mac" ads from Apple. I always understood the point they were trying to make, but the PC character was so much more likable than the Mac.
Talking to strangers is actually kind of nice as an introvert, there is very low pressure as you have no obligation to the person and you can end the conversation at any time.
I find it much nicer than talking to friends of friends or the absolute worst for me... the boyfriends of my girlfriends friends. You are getting shoved together into a forced interaction that you know will be asked about in the near future.
This is why I love IT conferences. I can chat up random strangers about topics that we're clearly both interested in. The vendors also send the most extroverted folks who are skilled in engaging introverted nerds. It's a great way for introverts to level up their social skills.
And the best part is that I never talk to those folks again ;) I found out that I actually really like making fast friends, I just hate the obligation of long-term close-knit friendships.
Probably at least once a week, you're going to see someone drop something, press the wrong button on the elevator, try to push on the pull door etc. My own stress always peeks when I'm in public and trip up on something minor like that. If you just shout "hey you need help?" you're probably not going to make them feel any better and doubly worse if you just avoid eye contact and walk around them. When that happens to me, it can reaaaally sour a morning.
But saying "they really need to make these doors automatic, I dropped my coffee here last week!" and helping out if they want it has the EXACT opposite effect. Suddenly, it's not embarrassing any more, and you might have a little convo commiserating about what sucks. It's just a little bit of connection to make someone's day a bit better which is definitely a win-win and good way of breaking the seal on talking to folks.
There's also another more neutral option. Just give them the answer they need without the fluff. If they then want to thank you and chat it's their choice, but completely optional.
This is probably not the right approach most of the time, but it works well on the types of people who seem "serious" (not anxious or upset).
This is a really hard one to pull off. You have to determine that they really are that type of person and then just magically know what they want. It's really satisfying when it works though.
I've met some of the most interesting people I've ever known that way.
Build your own repertoire of expressions by picking what you like. You could even use AI to make lists of such phrases if nothing comes to mind. Take the ones you like and use whatever suits you. At some point it'll become automatic.
> I highly recommend talking to strangers! People are lovely. Go out and try it.
Which country are you in?
I'm from a latin country and the norm is that you end up chatting about life the universe and everything with any random people you share a space with for more than one minute.
But in the USA that doesn't really fly. Talking is transactional, either a business deal is going on or shut up. I've been in the USA for a long time and as an introverted person I'm mostly ok with that, but whenever I'm back home I realize how much I miss talking to random people.
A lot of seemingly casual interactions in the US turn out to be someone trying to sell something. When that happens a 3rd time, you start to ignore random chatter from someone that seems too friendly. The salesperson tactics abuse common social conversation rules, and one ends up feeling like they are being forced to be mean and rude to an idiot. So, to avoid that, we push away chatty strangers in the United States.
Having grown up in Germany i was surprised how many people in the US would strike up a conversation randomly in the street with me - I thought it’s a normal thing and never really experienced it in Germany - there I would always be suspicious that people try to scam me or get money or something.
I do agree with GP that in Latin America it’s super common and normal to chat with everyone.
But there are many levels to this - it’s for example less common in Nordic countries at least in my experience but you can speak to people in every place on earth, it’s something universal.
I live in a Nordic country. The rule here is to avoid social contact at any cost. People waiting for a bus must stand at least 2 meters away from each other. Otherwise you might be close enough for someone less equipped in the local etiquette to mistake you for someone that may engage in small talk. When sitting , never sit directly next to someone else. Stand if that’s not possible and try to observe the 2 meter rule. Neighbors learn each other time routines to make sure they never have the uncomfortable experience of having to cross paths and acknowledge the others presence.
I'm on my fifth decade living in the nordics. Strangers have conversations at bus stops and neighbours socialize by the garbage bins and across the hedges all the time.
Not as much as in some other places in the world, but it is not at all rare.
Maybe in other regions, I am in Stockholm and would be shocked by an approaching neighbour trying to talk to me, unless it was to complain about my trees or something.
On the bus/train, even when it breaks down and we have to wait nearly an hour for it to start moving again, I've seen carriages full of people not speaking a word to each other (except people now think it's ok to speak on their phones, to my great annoyance).
It may also depend on where you're from. I'm British, have travelled around the US, and never had problem engaging in chit chat with all sorts of people, big cities or not. But there's a strong disarming undercurrent of "oh wow, you're from England" through the whole experience that I expect most Americans never experience, at least within their own country.
Tourist areas of large cities are like this. LinkedIn connections are like this. Other than that, people are delighted when you speak to them for the most part.
If nothing else, the nerves and flashbulb memories overwrite old nerves and flashbulb memories.
That or someone running some sort of scam or asking for money. All on the same continuum I guess. I'm always on my guard when a talkative stranger approaches me. Which is sad in a way, but experience proves it's necessary.
I'm in my 42nd year of life and I've never been small talked into giving someone money. I have been accosted by pan handlers who are directly asking for money. But never under the guise of a conversation. Ok, I take it back, once in 2011.
Change "sales tactics" to "pickup attempt" and I think you'll find it a lot harder to dismiss it as a reason - not because it's true, but because of how much of a headache it is to get on the bad side of people who insist it's true. I'm gay (and active), but don't really present as such, and it's remarkable how often I receive, "I wish this creep would stop hitting on me/generally being an unattached male in my presence," vibes. I didn't want to believe it myself, until I noticed the markedly reduced occurrence when speaking to women who were visibly much older than I am. For women my age and younger: I'm not interested, but they think I'm interested, and that is a convo killer.
On the guy side, they usually seem too preoccupied to talk, or are moving with friends/family where interjecting as a stranger would be weird (because you either need to address the group or else you seem like you're attempting to break them off into a conversation away from that group). Though I'll give that the "too preoccupied" is sometimes merely an affect hiding, "This loser has nothing to offer me."
It's kind of crazy when someone has an outlier experience and then tries to frame an entire country as being that way.
I've experienced a lot of cultures, countries, and environments. The United States is KNOWN for being a friendly country of people who will talk to you and smile at you for "no reason" other than because Americans are friendly.
Go to many countries in Europe or even Russia, you'll experience the exact oppositive. If you smile at people or talk to a stranger, you will essentially be treated as if something is wrong with you.
Everyone knows this is true about the US. Your comment is clearly trying to portray the United States in a negative light with something that is entirely not true.
And then there's my experience: someone who has lived in the US for over 30+ years.
Frame however you need. Born and raised in the USA, lived all over the country, but never the true South. Of course, everywhere is different, and everywhere has friendly and unfriendly people. I've primarily lived in cities with a population greater than 100K, usually several million. I think my statement above stands.
Your statement doesn't though. Opinions don't become rooted in fact when we declare them so. No hard feelings, but your claim is akin to someone claiming that they stay away from Germans to avoid their extroverted nature.
When I visited New York City (and the US) for the first time in like 2010 I was taken a back but how much Americans like to chat randomly so this is strange to read.
I remember a random guy was chatting to me in the subway, then I got out, waiting at a crosswalk for the green, in those 15 seconds another guy starts another random conversation. In the first 2 hours of the trip I already had maybe 10 random circumstantial conversations. The whole trip I felt like if I wanted I could always be talking!
Yep. I lived long enough in the UK to thoroughly absorb their social dynamic, and the chattiness of strangers was my biggest culture shock moving back to the US. (West Coast USA, for those of you who think people here rate high on the "actually reserved" social scale.) I've been back long enough (+decade) to feel comfortable again with this level of random social interaction, but my wife, who's from the US South - twenty years on the West Coast, now - still feels like folks here are socially "cold".
Everyone here should note that The Guardian (I'm old enough to remember when it was The Manchester Guardian) is a UK newspaper, and adjust your understanding of its advice, or its necessity, accordingly.
This was my experience too. The USA is the only country I've ever been to where random strangers will strike up a conversation with me completely out of the blue, and I've travelled quite a lot.
For people whose cultures value reserve and privacy, visiting the U.S. is a study in cross-cultural dynamics and sometimes a serious test of social boundaries. Your comment reflects that. The loudness, friendliness, warmth, and (occasional) casual intrusiveness is both a reality and a stereotype. It always reminds me of this hilarious Harry & Paul (UK) sketch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGc3zFOFI-s
It's both regional and depends on how you are perceived.
I'm an introvert and I'm always surprised when a stranger talks to me, no matter where I am. But I make a point of always being pleasant back, no matter how I feel about it at the moment.
Sometimes it's just a couple sentences, and sometimes it's more of a conversation. It'd probably be more if I was better at conversations.
The only exception is if I feel the other person wants something from me, or they seem crazy or dangerous. I don't engage with those types.
NYC is very different in that regard from most anywhere else in the US. Random people tend to talk to each other. There’s a vague sense of “we’re all in this shit together”. Maybe it’s something to do with living on a cramped island, with no choice but to work together.
> But in the USA that doesn't really fly. Talking is transactional, either a business deal is going on or shut up.
This is regional within the US and obviously differs by person even then. Just remember that the people you are talking to may be the kind of people that need articles like the above to teach them how to talk to people. Their defenses go up when someone approaches them and while they are well practiced at appearing relaxed, they are not. Conversations are short because its emotionally difficult to stay in a heightened awareness state while someone is trying to pull you out of it. But you can certainly provide offramps
I think it depends on the part of the US. In my experience, being from the south, I am used to people engaging in small talk with strangers. However, working in the northeast I find people to be very transactional until you wear them down over an extended period of time haha.
In some cultures, you signal respecting someone's time by not bothering them.
In other cultures, you signal respecting someone's time by making small-talk with them.
Advice about making small talk vs. not making small talk is not really useful unless it acknowledges this cultural divide and the percentage chance a stranger falls into one culture or another.
This was also my observation after growing up in New England and then moving to Denver, Colorado. People were much more open to conversation than I was previously used to which felt like a breath of fresh air. I realized people in New England seemingly default to a “defensive” interaction mode when conversed with without a pre-shared common ground, such as a task or moment. Its quite apparent when visiting family back east.
Fellow New England -> Colorado transplant. It was pleasantly shocking for me too how much chattier and friendlier people are in Colorado. But now I've lived in Colorado long enough that when I go back to visit New England, it's shocking how cold and taciturn people are there. Conversations with strangers rarely get past "How ya doin?" "Fine and you? "Fine, thanks."
I do appreciate how direct people in the northeast tend to be, and sometimes miss that aspect of the culture.
I grew up in small town Midwest and have now lived in tiny town New England for 20+ years. It still bothers me that folks here in New England won’t even acknowledge you on the sidewalk as you pass each other whereas in the Midwest that is a good excuse for a conversation. They haven’t worn me down though, I still say hello at least to each person as I pass and maybe get a mumble back 50% of the time.
I think a lot of it has to do with the somewhat complicated engagement protocol, if everyone assumes that nobody else wants to talk then it's easier to just keep your head down and at best nod or even avert eye contact but when someone extends a level of conversational courtesy I think people often respond in kind. My challenge is that I don't often have the impulse to break the ice but when I do and feel genuinely outgoing people tend to appreciate the chit chat even if it's just about the weather but I also have many moments of standing awkwardly in elevators silently ascending or walking down the street silently and even feeling awkward ordering food. Being able to consistently be outgoing I feel would be a net positive but I'm not sure what the trick is to just turn it on without it feeling forced.
For what it's worth, this has not been my experience with Americans. There are certainly things that I don't like about the average American, but I find him to be pretty gregarious.
I think this applies for most of the Europe other than south, though smaller the town more talkative the people I think, in villages with nothing to do are people more likely to be curious about the stranger or just having small talk.
I live in tourist Prague, pretty much never talking with someone other than when I see someone clearly struggling with directions in public transport and I see they go out of the tourist city center I just confirm whether they know it, most of the time* it's not what they intend to do.
*Germans being the exemption, seems they like to do whole team line grim the end to end to see the city even when it's not touristy, for these I have recommendation of some rare above the ground subway sections
I’m in the US in the Bay Area. Talking to strangers is not the norm but plenty of people are responsive and happy to talk if you engage them. Break the norms and see how it goes!
When I was staying with my older brothers, one of their magazines was along the lines of maybe a GQ but in the 90’s, iirc I was probably in middle school, and probably reading content a bit above my age level in terms of concept.
One of their articles though was about “talking to women” but it also emphasized just talking to _anyone_. It had suggestions like “if you’re out at the bar, just ask to sit with a random group, introduce yourself, and have a conversation.”
Many years later in college, I did indeed try this at a bar and was pleasantly surprised. I didn’t make any long term friends, or find a new partner, but I did really start honing the skill of being social with anyone. It’s hard, and especially for me and my social anxiety, it has also really helped me feel more comfortable in places unfamiliar and people unknown.
It really helps to learn in an environment where failure isn't emotionally catastrophic. If you only talk to people that are interesting or important to you, then you can end up learning the wrong things because failure hits so hard. The desperation this can create will further serve to drive people away!
People need to feel like it's safe to develop relations with you, rather than like you're trying to manipulate them into doing so, which is what happens when you learn only from very hard failures.
I suppose you're comfortable with it though. Many people aren't comfortable with even the basic step of starting a random conversation or asking strangers questions/for help.
You don't need to do it, but everyone should probably be at least comfortable/confident striking up conversations with people they don't know.
Did people only talk about themselves? It is probably a rare trait when someone legitimately cares about other peoples inane daily lives.
It would be interesting to actually talk to hundreds of people a week for years, you would probably get really good at categorizing people and predicting where they are in life and what their current concerns are.
> Did people only talk about themselves? It is probably a rare trait when someone legitimately cares about other peoples inane daily lives.
I love this honestly. I talked to people that insurance that talks about their customer, retired prostitute that have reached financial freedom, NEETs, right wingers, and many other curious people. The reality is that most people are sane, and with a little bit of compassion and empathy, it is possible to "see how they get there".
I suppose these extremes are only available online because people won't open these up in physical meetings.
I have a couple of tricks that get people to talk to me.
Well, they're not really tricks, just things I do anyway.
One is that I wear an aloha shirt every day, and I shop at Trader Joe's.
Quite often someone thinks I work there and asks me where to find something. I usually know where things are, and if I don't, I find them someone who actually does work there.
One time the guy restocking the freezer said, "Nice aloha shirt! I bet people sometimes ask you where to find things."
30 seconds later, a lady walked up to me and asked if we carry organic bread. So I walked her over to the bread section and pointed out some organic options. Then back to the freezer section: "You were right!"
Another trick is to take my cat Oakey for a walk in his cat stroller. People see the stroller and expect to see a baby in it, and are surprised to see a cat! Children walking with their parents especially love to see Oakey, and he enjoys the attention.
Sometimes you just have to seize the moment. Last year I was at a friend's company summer picnic. One of her colleagues brought her ten year old son. He was wearing an astronomy T-shirt. They were sitting at another table, and as they got up I asked him, "Are you into astronomy?"
"Yes."
"I have a very important question for you. Pluto is still a planet, right?"
"Yes it is!"
We high-fived and I said, "Welcome to Team Pluto!"
We've seen each other at subsequent company events. It is always fun to hang out with a fellow astronomy enthusiast of any age.
I think an important parts of this is that "talking to someone" doesn't have to mean a long drawn-out conversation. Even just a few words back and forth is meaningful.
> I highly recommend talking to strangers! People are lovely. Go out and try it.
I’ve been here since 2009 and this is one of the loveliest comments I’ve read.
At face value, it may seem ‘duh!’.. but there’s a distinct aesthetic to it that resonated with me.
Perhaps the best analogy I can think of is Asimov’s philosophy about writing.
‘I want the reader to forget they are reading as if my thoughts are being transmitted directly from my brain into theirs’ [sic]
Recently, a research publication demonstrated that an LLM.. nah, not today. Sometimes knowing the underlying theory and deciding to disengage from it and just appreciate the moment is fine.
Because I can go outside my apartment here in Tokyo right now and try it. I already do, but each of us has our own unique loveliness. So I’ll keep trying. Just because.
I found mixed results given underlying anxiety that hadn't been diagnosed at the point I was trying this. Talking to new people at work, while out pursuing hobbies, and around town, all accrued to more and better conversations.
It was a much bigger struggle with conversations where I was putting extra pressure on myself. Being able to have those other conversations was helpful though. Eventually, I found a therapist and am in a better place with this.
Letting curiosity be the motivator behind starting these conversations and cultivating curiosity more broadly can help -- or at least I have found it to be helpful in making initiating feel less forced. I wonder about people's jobs or the reasons they are visiting a place or what they think about what's happening nearby, or just generally who they are.
One antipattern I've encountered with this approach tho is that sometimes anxious people will exhaust their conversation partners with a battery of questions. Even if thoughtful, this can sometimes have the effect of exhausting your partner, and tends to keep the conversation steered away from actual connection. YMMV, but either way be mindful and make it a point to share yourself
You teach yourself to say no, to the things you don't want to do.
I considered leaving just that pithy reply, because that's really it. But some of the extra context; It's not a bother to ask someone to hold the door they're already going through because your hands are full. Starting a conversation is about as intrusive as that. The vast majority of people don't mind making some small talk, and ontop of that, the majority can make an excuse if they don't have time. You only assume they can't politely decline, because you can't. Once you learn to say no thanks, politely, but explicitly and directly. You'll actually understand and expect others to return the favor.
That's a much more fair way to interact with people too.
I'd add also that learning to hear someone tell you no and not taking it to heart and getting on with your life. So many people walk through life being afraid of hearing someone reply "no" to them, like its some existential rejection of them and that stops them from doing many things.
I'll make chit chat with anyone, and people who dont want to chat with are generally pretty explicit about saying they dont want to chat or don't have time, or pretty obviously implicit about it by not engaging or looking for ways out.
Yeah this is the way. You will lightly bother some people by being talkative. But it’s ok. So long as you’re sensitive to their desire not to talk, you’ll be fine. Nobody will murder you in the night or kick you out of the village.
I live in an apartment (condo). I’ve been practicing making small talk with people in the elevator. The conversations aren’t all winners. Lots of people are closed off or don’t want to chat. But no matter. Elevator conversations are disposable. And most people are genuinely lovely. It’s a fun challenge trying to brighten the days of strangers.
For me that clicked we are all just kids. Your parents are struggling with some problems in everyday life as you are. Your teachers sometimes might say they don't know the answer to your question in their field which is alright. (Parents and teachers are two figures who we look up to.) My point is that if you're thinking, "they have much more experience and I don't, so no need to bother them.." you're wrong. Basically, they could have more things, but about same lot of problems in the life as you. After that, just start asking simple questions.
As the article says, you just take the risk. Maybe you will bother the person. It’s okay, you’ll be able to quickly tell if you do, and you just gracefully back away and go on with your day. It’ll probably happen much less than you think.
I concur. And would just add two points:
(1) Make it that you’re not asking for anything / don’t open with something that could be perceived as a setup to asking for money, or pushing a religion. :)
2) be sensitive to social cues or that they want to be left alone, like terse answers or shifting their attention away from you
I’ve found it can be helpful to shift your own attention after someone answers you, but not to a phone (which just makes you look like you’re communicating with someone else).
Look at a flyer on the wall, or your beverage if you’re in a bar, and they’ll follow up if they want to talk and appreciate the reduced pressure either way.
And yeah, never open a conversation with something like “can I ask you a question?” which is usually a trick of a salesperson or beggar to make you acknowledge them and start saying yes.
This actually jives with my personal experience living in NYC.
New Yorkers have a reputation for being stone cold with strangers, but the truth is that anytime somebody approaches you out of the blue, there's an assumption that they're about to ask for money or try to get in your pants. Once you demonstrate you're not looking for either (or, if the second I suppose, that you're at least smooth enough for it not to be immediately evident), people are generally really kind. With some exceptions, I've usually found that the coldest looking person will stop to give a lost tourist directions if it's clear they're in need.
Lasting consequences include social outcasting and even dismissal. Those are pretty lasting.
>Just don’t make things a big deal
That sadly doesn't stop the runmors from flowing. That's the real damning thing about such social faux pas. Your reputation can be ruined without having a single person say it to your face. That's both unsettling and morbid for how you look to humanity.
You have to mess up pretty badly for this to happen. Most people would be a lot less worried what others think of them if they realized how rarely the do.
The reality is that most people are too busy thinking about themselves to spend any time thinking about you or a random little interaction that didn’t land
> The reality is that most people are too busy thinking about themselves to spend any time thinking about you
I was fortunate to come to this realization in my 20s and wish I had realized it so much sooner. The vast majority of people are only thinking about themselves the vast majority of the time. This means the anxiousness we feel about what we think other people think about us is mostly made up in our heads.
If you’re not talking to anyone, you’re already a social outcast. In my mind the risk of saying something wrong is much less than the risk of being omitted through inaction.
I'm trying to figure out in what situation asking someone a general question like 'how is your day going?' going to have lasting negative consequences.
My grandpa had a gift for people - the man could start a conversation with anyone, form fast friends and remember their spouse’s middle name in twenty years.
As he put it, it’s a coin toss. Maybe you’re bothering them or maybe they’re grateful to have someone to distract them. Each is equally true before you start the conversation.
The key is being able to read social cues. If you can, you can stop bothering them.
Would you be bothered if a stranger struck up a nice conversation with you? Most people like it! And even if they don’t, that’s ok, trust people to tell you their boundaries and respect them when they do. Nothing wrong with bothering someone if they tell you or send a strong signal and you respect it.
I said "obvious" and "everyone". I think your level of paranoia is irrational, but in addition it's not required of everyone with those different experiences.
I'm from the US and not the Midwest. Not rural either. If I'm clearly doing something it might bother me, otherwise I would find it nice to meet someone new. I have mild asd and large gatherings cause anxiety, but if I'm just sitting people watching or on a stroll, talking to one or two people wouldn't bother or stress me.
I probably shouldn't even legitimize this absurdity by responding to it, but no. And if the answer were yes, that would not validate the fallacious reasoning processes leading to this guess. Here's a hint: reread my comment, focusing on the words "obvious" and "everyone".
> Would you be bothered if a stranger struck up a nice conversation with you?
Yes. If I am basically anywhere there are other people, I am there for a specific reason, and anyone trying to talk to me for anything else is bothering me. I've found that most people that try to start conversations with strangers are really poor at reading signals that their actions are unwanted and they only stop when you say something so out of their comfort zone they have no idea how to handle it. They just can't understand that people wouldn't want to talk to them.
And after this article and thread, we can add I don't want to be your practice dummy to the reasons you're bothering me.
The example in the article is a waiting room. Or you could be waiting to catch the subway, or in line at the grocery store. In those situations how is somebody trying to talk to you preventing you from completing your task? Otherwise you're probably just scrolling your phone; sometimes I fill these gaps with things like podcasts, but even then it's not like what I'm doing is urgent.
I am wherever for a reason, and that reason is not to be social. I am thinking about what I am doing next, what I need to bring up in whatever thing I'm waiting for, or quite frankly any number of things. You are interrupting me. You'd probably get it if we changed things up and instead of standing in line, we said you were staring out the window while sitting at your desk. You're clearly doing nothing right and talking to you isn't interrupting what your task is because your task is just typing code, and we did just say you're not doing that.
You are bothering me trying to talk to me when I am out, because I am only out to do things specifically. Just because I am currently doing something (waiting) that you deem unimportant or an indicator I am free does not make it so.
I usually just start with a small harmless joke about the current situation we're both in. People either don't respond to it, and I leave them alone, or they engage and a conversation commences.
All of these have to be told light-hearted, as observational "jokes". Not like you are actually annoyed. You're just making light of a situation.
"I guess the bus is just never on time here, huh"
(Stuck in line at the grocers) "Friday evening rush-hour"
Same kind of thing with whatever you are observing, at the Doctor, in the gym, waiting for the light to turn, etc, etc.
It's all shit jokes if you can even call them that. But the purpose isn't to start a standup routine, it's to share a situation with a stranger and open up the floor to conversation. You are basically just indicating to a stranger: "Hey, I'm open for conversation", they can then choose to respond or just ignore the remark. Then you go from there.
Exactly this - yesterday I was in line at the grocery store and the cashier and customer ahead of me were complaining about our long, frigid winter (not normal for this region) - I joked about how if the long-range forecasts were correct we will be up to +18c next Saturday and we all laughed about the launch straight from winter into "summer". And we all moved on - not everything has to be an in-depth conversation.
I think that it comes down to that people often like to talk about their interests but worry that the recipient may not be. So we end up with two people who want to talk but worried about the others feelings.
These are called questions. They’re great. Hell, if you want to be regarded as a great conversationalist and great storyteller, all you have to do is ask questions.
If the answer is, "of course not". Pull that thread. Honestly, so much "therapy" for some of us boils down to confronting/examining that disconnect and exploring why it exists/how it came to be.
Not the guy you asked, but my answer is: only if they are panhandling. Otherwise I usually feel a little surprised that someone would have any interest in my thoughts. So I feel a bit tickled if they have genuine interest.
I genuinely get bothered when someone talks to me. I am typically rushing through my day to do stuff, whether it is hiking, grocery shopping, working out, or going to the restroom at work, and getting interrupted feels to me like getting an unwanted push notification on your phone.
When someone occasionally engages, I extremely quickly dismiss them in the most polite, but firm, way possible. I also intentionally keep a demeanor that generally signals I’m not open to random conversations (I avoid eye contact etc.), but that often doesn’t work. At the gym it is particularly problematic, I’m focusing on gathering strength for my next set and sometimes people bother you even if I am wearing headphones.
I truly do not have a problem with who I am, I’m comfortable in my shoes.
As such, never in a million years I would approach a stranger to strike up a conversation, it would seem an incredibly rude thing to do towards them, on top of clearly not having any desire to engage from my side.
I’ll talk for hours straight to my wife, close family and the very few friends I have though!
Fascinating how much this varies by culture too. People generally have attitudes similar to you in Nordic countries, or even Seattle, but then you go to South American countries, or India, and it feels like everyone talks to everyone all the time.
Danes are, according to the internet, in the "don't talk to me ever" group, but I don't think that true. Mostly I believe that's because the areas of the internet where people talk about the glory of self-checkout and the benefits of wearing big ass head phones are a little self-selective in their view of the world.
Obviously you should not bother people, but even in random encounters many people absolutely loves to talk. In many you can see their eyes light up if you talk to them of ask them a question. The internet has us so conditioned to believing that people just want to be left alone that we miss out on a ton of wonderful human interaction.
We honestly can't keep both talking about a loneliness epidemic and at the same time push the narrative "don't talk to me ever". We should absolutely respect e.g. people on the autism spectre or anxiety and their issues with talking to strangers, but I feel like we're allowing them to dictate a mode of interaction, or avoidance thereof, which isn't healthy for the rest of us.
I am bothered by random people wanting to talk to me -> Randomly talking to other people would bother them -> Bothering people is rude -> Randomly talking to people is rude.
Hence why the platinum rule is better. Once you know that other people (apparently!) aren't bothered by randomly striking up a conversation, you can adjust your actions accordingly.
No, that rule does not say "it is rude for others to do unto you differently from how you would do unto them"--it's about how you should behave toward others, not a justification for your negative judgment of how others behave toward you.
I agree that the platinum rule is better, but that difference is not the problem here.
I don't judge them negatively. They're working based on the available information. That line of reasoning is the exact same that I would use if it weren't for the fact that I have better information available and thus can apply the platinum rule. I don't enjoy random conversations, and would consider it rude to engage in them if it weren't for the fact people seem to enjoy them. Since they do, I try to engage in them when people try to strike one up.
If I didn't have that information (and people used the golden rule consistently and weren't just knobheads), then I would be consistently annoyed at people not following the golden rule. As long as my theory of mind doesn't include 'other people generally enjoy random conversations', my perception would be that the golden rule is consistently broken by people striking up random conversations.
This is a common mistake many make - please don't be a "mind reader" and make assumptions. Seek clarification. Treat people like adults, and act like adults - you have the right to talk to anyone or ask someone for help. They have the right to be dismissive towards you or say no for whatever personal reason. People have different personalities. Sometimes, even nice people people act differently depending on the day they had and their moods. The point is, if they are strangers, you don't need to attribute any meaning or malice to this. However, always be mindful of social conventions and cultural practices.
Most people crave conversation and interaction. Those that are busy enough to potentially really be bothered will either show that clearly, or tell you so.
Wherever it starts, it requires both sides willingness to go beyond the level of "quite a weather, huh". Without which the right approach is a quick and graceful exit. My 2c.
Don't talk to me though, while I am trying to do focused work ...
Or other people who are really busy right now, but in general yes, most people enjoy random interactions and talks. And most people do have interesting things to share. You have to have genuine interest, though. Don't force it - but be open for it. Make eye contact first and then you might connect. It is astonishing how many grim looking people suddenly start to smile and act friendly, if you just start a friendly conversation with them. Even if it is just a exchange of a simple comments.
I can't recommend being intentionally rude so that you can get practice dealing with people who are pissed off at you. Learning how to tell when it's a bad time to strike up a conversation with a stranger will be a much greater benefit for anyone looking to meet women or even for someone just working on being friendlier/more social. There'll be no shortage of opportunities to learn how to deal with rejection even without being a pest.
As I understand, GP is recommending that folks take a risk that their drumming up a conversation might be unwelcome if they are unsure. They're not advocating for folks to harass people who are in no position to chat or who have stated as much.
People can't read minds, so I think we owe grace to the folks around us if they misread a situation and respect your wishes when you let them know that it's you're unwilling or unable to chat at the moment.
While it's great to learn social cues, it's often impossible to know whether someone is in the mood to chat.
I cannot agree with that. Do not be shy about trying, but do not be a pest either. There are many times when interruptions are not good for both sides. My 2c.
To summarize, the suggestion was to live like you live in the Midwest outside of urban/suburban areas. That's very funny to me.
My spouse had a hard time acclimating to rural Midwest life after living in a mega city on the East Coast. She complained that everything takes an extra half hour for time spent standing around talking about nothing.
It never dawned on me that if you're from a place, like a large city, where interacting with strangers or very distant acquaintances isn't encouraged, that this would not be a natural part of life.
I find this interesting but don't know what to do with that.
Yup. I’m super social and extroverted, in the sense that I love meeting new people and if I’m introduced to anyone I make connections easily. But I can’t in a million years be the one breaking the ice.
This is in big part due to being born and raised in a large European capital. There’s unwritten barriers you respect as a social rule, and if someone breaks the rule you assume they’re trying to sell something or scam you. To me talking to a stranger unprompted feels as out of place as pulling my pants down in public.
It’s natural for these barriers to exist to make dense spaces liveable, but they do constrain you.
That's like that scene from Crocodile Dundee - for those that don't know the movie, the guy is from some tiny town way out in the sticks in Australia, and visits NY. In the scene I'm thinking of, Dundee walks down a street in NY following his usual habit of greeting everyone, which is difficult as they don't expect it and there are too many anyway.
I used to live in a rural area and I found it so claustrophobic. I hate living in a place where I've seen everyone's face, know every street and every building. It feels so limiting, there's nothing to explore, no magic shops or communities to discover.
And also, I really hated the religious mindset with all the little rules they have, the hatred for lgbt people, single parents, foreigners etc. There were good people too but you always had to watch who was around to have a chat. I'm very progressive and atheist. And very alternative.
My ex who was from this community even got in trouble with some parents because she told the kids she was minding that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. Apparently it's normal to deny all the progress we have made as a society.
I just couldn't deal with it, it just made me so depressed. And this wasn't even in the US but just in Europe.
In the city it's much easier to find open-minded people. And the ones who aren't don't control public life. I don't ever want to live in a rural area again after that (though in fairness I do have some ptsd from it).
I live in a rural area (not in the US though). Everyone knows I'm a weirdo, and almost all of them are cool with it. This is how people lose their prejudices - they meet a foreigner, or a single mother, or a gay person, and they discover that they like them
I was a foreigner in that country too and there's been so many times that people were bitching about foreigners with me present, only to realise and go like 'present company excepted of course' as if that makes it ok.
In my experience it just made me the exception to their prejudices but did nothing to actually remove them.
I hope this is not an inappropriate question, but are you by any chance fit and/or attractive? I've heard that and being well dressed affects your experience with people a lot.
For me it's a mix, the majority at least try to be decent and pleasant, no argument there. But as with many other things, the minority who aren't tend to have a much bigger impact. Honestly, I'd take just being safe from violence from people is good enough for me, even that isn't a given.
I agree. 95% of violence is committed by men aged 15-25. If you wanted to be extra sure, just avoid that very specific group. But in general, minute by minute, nobody wants to be violent.
But then I'd be prejudiced. Stereotypes exist because they have a certain good degree of accuracy, but that doesn't make them right. For the sake of that one person in that group that didn't do anything wrong, I have to try and be fair to the whole group.
This is where you use this stereotype to do a more detailed evaluation of the person to decide if they're safe/worth engaging with, or avoid them entirely if it's not worth it to you. You might bring in other stereotypes at this point and apply this process recursively until you have no more statistical regularities to use to guide your behavior.
Care to share a similar break-down by race, income, and wealth? From what i looked up, the average black income is $56k/yr but for white it is $92k/yr. 20% and 7.5% respectively for percent of the population that's under the poverty line.
Also for the same crime stats 69% for white and 26% for black is what I'm seeing for 2024-2025, with 60% and 30% of the population respectively. so 13% more for black and 9% more for white, we're talking about a 4% difference when looking at overall crime. accounting for reporting issues and requirements is a different story. Just like your other comment, such a deceptive line of thinking you people like to push. The numbers you show are accurate, but the interpretations you interpolate are lies of omission, or at best willful ignorance to support a prejudice.
Even for correlating with age I don't agree with this type of conclusion that lacks the lightest touch of critical thinking.
Yeah, buddy, you're just a good old fashioned racist. Men commit most violent crimes too by the way, I'm sure you knew that. So in short, to follow your logic, everyone should stay way from men, people under 25 and people who're not white or asian. Only white and asian women over 25 are safe?
And of course 99% of crimes (felonies) are committed by people over 15, so they're not safe as well.
You know, the problem with people like you is that you've already decided what result you want to see. So you'll observe evidence, and you'll criticize it, until it fits the narrative you're expecting. Whereas a person looking for truth, will continue to criticize the results even when the results make sense to them, or fit their expectations and prejudices. When the data confirms your prejudice you feel vindicated and cling on to it.
If you look at a heat map overlay of crimes in the US, you'll certainly see areas where black people live and have lived historically with the most crimes. If you did the same with the data representing current and historical poverty rates you'll see the same pattern. Heck, I've even seen maps of the US south that compare all of that data with soil fertility, it turns out the areas where cotton would grow the most is where the slaves were imported into, and then after the civil war ..well you probably know the rest.
Either way, I think you missed what I said originally in this thread about justice and fairness. You wouldn't want to be held responsible for an arbitrary group someone else placed you in, would you now? so why do that to others.
Numbers are also deceptive, would you be concerned more about mass shootings, rape, child abuse, human trafficking, robbery? crimes of poverty, crimes of vice, crimes of psycopathy. If I'm going to school I'd care more about mass shooters, if I'm a woman and jogging, I'd care more about rape, but even then recent trends are more important than generalized long term stats. For some crimes just one incident a year is too much, for others you can have thousands and it might still be normal with a big enough population (e.g.: car break ins).
The thing that pisses me off the most with your kind of thinking is that even following your reasoning, why is race important? You presume some kind of biological connection. Even among racists, some prefer to ask questions and follow the "it's their culture" thinking, which has some merit, as Europeans are finding out from all the recent migrations. But you know the really insidious part of your reasoning? When you see a certain group being convicted of crimes more than others, your assumption is they commit more crimes, instead of asking if the cops are arresting and targeting that group more than other groups.
I mean, it isn't really a big secret, you can be a rich guy on wallstreet and snort coke night and day and you'll be left alone. But people serve decades in prison for possessing weed that's legal in other states. There are cities like portland and SF that have a largely white population that see lots of crimes of poverty and opportunity as well, similar to other cities where those people tend to have more melanin on them. I urge you to visit seattle or portland, with an expensive car, you should follow the local custom of unlocking your car, so they don't break the window when they want to go through your things to see if there's anything worth taking (they still break the window though, most are too lazy to check if the door is open).
I wish it was just media. And it's certainly not random, I wouldn't expect violence in a decent neighborhood. But I would on the subway in NYC for example (depends on the line too I guess). And by violence I don't mean necessarily assault, but anything that involves the cops, getting arrested, etc.. or certain forms of mistreatment (even though it's a stretch to call them violence).
I mentioned attractiveness because when I dress up nice and lose weight, it's a wildly different world. When that isn't the case I'd say at least 60% of my interactions with people is negative. Out of that I'd say maybe 2% is extreme enough to be considered violence in my view.
I'll say this though, I didn't mean we should avoid interaction or being nice to each other in the off chance people are unpleasant or unkind. I'm just saying, don't go into it with that expectation unless you're pleasant to look at yourself.
Some people, especially as they grow old (and especially women unfortunately), see a remarkable decline in how they're treated, and that in turn causes them to be jaded towards people. If you don't tie how people respond to you to how you treat them to begin with (It's huge struggle for me, not preaching here), it's less of a bitter pill.
> I wish it was just media. And it's certainly not random, I wouldn't expect violence in a decent neighborhood. But I would on the subway in NYC for example (depends on the line too I guess). And by violence I don't mean necessarily assault, but anything that involves the cops, getting arrested, etc.. or certain forms of mistreatment (even though it's a stretch to call them violence).
The fear of crime is more socially harmful than crime itself, net.
A hundred years ago, folks in the US trusted their neighbors more, despite violent crime being more likely than today. The US is objectively safer now, but, ironically, people are more afraid than ever of talking with strangers, and more distrustful of their neighbors.
If folks back then could chat with a stranger without being gripped by paranoia, I think we can do it today. Don’t let the media scare you from living life. Have chit-chat. Have fun!
It's not paranoia, look at this thread alone and the responses from @xigoi , even on HN which is heavily moderated and leans to more liberal views. Terrible people are plenty. I'd think after the past few elections in the US that was obvious. Violence isn't the only reason to be cautions with strangers, mistreatment is another reason, having a negative interaction in general is unpleasant.
The solution is not to pretend people's experiences are invalid, or that somehow reducing the risk of harm is wrong, but to find ways to adapt, and be prepared to handle or dismiss negative interactions, as well as value the benefits of positive ones.
What kind of violence have you experienced from striking up friendly conversations with strangers in otherwise normal circumstances? What are you talking about?
I highly recommend talking to strangers! People are lovely. Go out and try it.
I did this a few times and it surprisingly worked. I was able to make small talk about an article I was reading. Did it matter that I didn't come off with the confidence of Tony Robbins? No.
Obviously this works only if you are an extrovert. Introverts would find this kind of interaction a wasteful use of limited social energy available to them.
Yes, because it's important. And also figure out why you don't enjoy it, and whether that's a self-reinforcing thing. At the very least you can make it something neutral instead of something you actively dislike and avoid.
But why? If I don't enjoy talking to anyone and everyone, why should I be doing it? What's wrong with focusing on people who matter to me?
It's not like I don't give people a chance, but I'm pretty quick in identifying and cutting off people who are draining my energy, even if they are otherwise quite nice and enjoyable company for others.
> If I don't enjoy talking to anyone and everyone, why should I be doing it?
There's probably something to be said about this world being largely built for extroverts and needing to be able to be at least somewhat like that to succeed. Sometimes good opportunities are just a matter of showing up and being sociable, and being good at it.
If you're gonna have to do it, might as well get better at it and get at least somewhat used/desensitized to it. A part of it is also about picking up on social cues, making others comfortable around you and establishing relationships - like those anecdotes about someone who has a really good CV not being able to compete to someone who knows someone at the company, but obviously not just in the professional world.
I don't necessarily like that it's the way it is and have missed out on A LOT of opportunities due to being quite introverted but oh well.
Yes. It's like exercise. Or eating healthy. I don't enjoy working out but I should really be doing it. I really enjoy eating sweets, but I should not be doing that all the time.
An analogy isn't an answer to "why", it's a literary device to make it easier to understand a concept.
Even if talking to people is beneficial (I can accept that), you're also shaming people for being introverts. Nobody should be faulted for enjoying me-time. It isn't even harmful. No, it's not like eating too many sweets.
I have ADHD with terrible social anxiety, and conventional treatments only help so much.
I know I can eventually beat it, and I'm so happy for you and everyone who beats social anxiety. You are my idols!
That said, I don't like it when someone says "yeah just do it, it's possible". It's not possible to just do it. Yeah only doing the thing is doing the thing and preparing to do it is not doing the thing, I get it. On the other hand, you can also jump off a cliff without checking your parachute, just saying.
Strong words. I'd like to understand your choice of words here.
> Categorizing yourself
Also known as knowing yourself, your strengths, and your weaknesses.
> purposefully stunt your growth
A wild assumption that talking to everyone will magically let you grow. Some people just prefer to focus on people that matter to them.
> ... reduce opportunity for growth
By choosing to compete in an area that is your weakness, you already limited your growth potential.
> ... wasteful use of life
So refusing to talk to everyone is a wasteful use of life. Again, I find it more wasteful to talk to anyone instead of people who matter to me. Unless it's fun, of course.
Categorising / knowing yourself is important for sure - I think in the case of the extrovert/introvert thing, it's an important first step to helping yourself, because in my experience/anecdotally, a lot of introverts know they're different from others, yet feel insecure or anxious about it. Awareness and acceptance won't make you "not an introvert" suddenly, but it can help recover from the awkwardness, self-doubt and anxiety. Still anecdotally, me and some other people who (10, 15 years ago or so) learned about introversion found more peace with themselves, that it's OK to want to be home, and that they learn to say "no" or "you know something, I've had enough and am going home".
Learning about who you are helps you know your limits and boundaries, which means you can learn to do more within your comfort zone and how far you can stretch it, which means your comfort zone expands and you can do more. That's the kind of growth I think comes with categorising oneself.
Knowing who you are and what your boundaries are is important. Being an introvert is not a weakness, as much as being an extrovert is not a strength. It's only that extroverts are louder and more assertive, and that way they convinced the majority of people in between that everyone should be an extrovert.
There's a certain amount of evidence that getting over anxiety is harder if you try to do it by doing the thing you are most anxious about.
An alternative is to do things which allow you to become more comfortable with a reasonable degree of personal risk. Which can include things like rock climbing which you do on your own.
Making global declarations about introverts isn't really useful beyond the basics. I'm an introvert and my life has gotten noticeably better once I started intentionally talking to people more. I still need to have my own time to recharge. That hasn't changed. The thing that changed is that I'm not longer inhabiting the self-imposed prison of thinking social interaction was not for me.
Not sure why you got downvoted with a perfectly valid opinion!
I’ve done what OP describes but I’m heavily introverted and likely HSP too. I’m pretty good at it but it’s incredibly exhausting. My father is exactly the same way.
As I get older, the more I consider self care and prioritising my own needs over others to be happy. To that end, I much prefer to keep to myself and so I do.
However it doesn’t stop me from engaging in impromptu conversations. I just don’t go out of my way to talk to literally everyone.
Exactly my point, you just formulated it better than I could.
The problem with extroverts is they assume everyone is like them. And they are pretty loud and push their opinions on others without the ability to listen and reflect. They would ignore that you are not like them, and would come up with all the arguments about "trying", "limiting growth", "training the muscles".
You can't accept that I know what's good for me? You want to change me? You think you know me better than I do? Then fuck you, I'll just stop talking to you without even telling you why.
And that's the exact reason why, in the real world, I just stop any communication with them. If they cannot adjust their communication so it can be enjoyable to me, I'm not going to pretend I enjoy communicating with them.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted but yes, this is true.
I don't want or need to talk to everyone, and I generally don't appreciate people I don't know or won't know in five minutes to engage me in idle chatter. Just leave me be.
I'm not a grouch, I'm not a grump, I'll be friendly but why do you have to harass me?
I'm perfectly comfortable in my own skin, doing my own thing, by myself. I don't have social anxiety, I'm not a misanthrope. Just let me be.
Introverts aren't broken. You don't have to impose yourself on everyone else.
As someone who works extensively with youth, but is somewhat of a extrovert..
There are many reasons why people are introverts. Some of them are "broken" and could use a fix, some are healthy and should not be touched.
If the source is a lack of confidence, it should be dealt with. Sometimes the fix involves pushing oneself to talk beyond their comfort level, sometimes not.
If the source is a form of ASD or Autism spectrum, then it depends very much on what the "introvertness" is costing them. If the person is either suffering or is living out of touch with reality, that's broken. Sometimes talking is absolutely required to create a fix. (Over here, even more-so, getting guidance is a must. Which is a shame since the more a person on the spectrum needs guidance the less he is likely to accept it)
If the source is an understanding of one's relative position (eg. at a meeting of seniors) then that's fine, but too much of that can be unhealthy.
If it's from depression, than please don't introvert. Get professional help.
If you are so into your phone that you've forgotten the joy of interaction with humans, that's broken. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in this category, and social media and AI are making things worse. (Nothing new though - 30 years ago I helped a kid who was watching 18+ hours of video, on a CRT! He was mighty introverted, and wanted nothing to do with us humans for weeks after starting treatment.)
If you are just a confident guy/gal that just happens to enjoy your own space, than all the power to you! From what I have heard there are a LOT of people that fall into this category, and I have even meet two or three of you!
But let me stress, even if things are broken, the advice in this article can often make things worse. And if it's not a problem for you, enjoy!
Talking to strangers is one of my favorite things to do. Airplanes, trains, or just waiting at the coffee shop for them to make my drink. I have met so many interesting people and it’s almost always a joy.
Now, you occasionally end up talking to someone who confesses to you that their post-nuclear dream life is to be a mother figure to a band of semi-aware ghouls. Goofy in the moment, but makes for a great story to share over a beer!
I used to do this during long travel in planes, buses or trains when I was single backpacker.
Now traveling with my own family is just exhausting chore and I couldn't care less about stranger sitting next to me, I heard enough stories for whole my life since I traveled a lot.
Recently I traveled with my mother to China and she was excited to talk with some girl next to her on long flight, I didn't find any value gained from such conversation and would rather watch a movie (or outside window is that was an option) and find it harder and harder older I get to see the added value.
I can see how that could happen, but I’d argue that the “value added” is just the opportunity to talk to someone.
I was once decently intoxicated on a subway ride home and I saw a man looking at the floor who seemed upset. I asked him how he was doing and he said “alright.” We chatted a little and he randomly asked me, “do you have a brother?” I told him I did and he asked me, “is there anything your brother could do that would be unforgivable?” I said, “I’m sure there are things he could do that would be beyond forgiveness, but I would have to think long and hard about given how permanent that decision could be. Cutting someone out of your life can be a good thing, but make sure it’s what you think is right because you may never have the opportunity to undo it.”
He seemed to really appreciate the advice and went on his way. I’m not sure what his brother did, but I hope they are able to figure it out. Those types of interactions are (IMO) one of life’s little pleasures.
I try to talk to everyone but it gets exhausting since most people don't seem to want to talk. And in almost every instance, I had a feeling they wouldn't. Go with your gut and don't try to talk to everyone if you're like me and don't want to replay awkward conversations in your head for the rest of the night.
I have a note at the beginning of my journal that says: 'Stand up straight, eye contact, smile', because I constantly need to remember that or I will look down, slouch and move through the world barely interacting with anyone.
Please also recognize when others don't really want to talk. Not everybody want to go beyond cultural niceties of a smile and "hi, how you doing". I don't want to be a jerk, but I also don't like to talk to random strangers.
This will never be me (I find any kind of smalltalk excruciating). But I'm so grateful, not to say relieved, that there are people like you. Society needs you.
"EXCUSE ME, SIR! I see you are moving with great intention. Might your hurriedness be in connection with those papers you hold in your hand? Pray tell, for I much desire to converse! Aah, I see, I was right to assume you were in a hurry. Anyway, it must be wonderful to be working at a place as beautiful as this, is it not? Hah ha ha yees, isn't it wonderful. Well, alright then be on your way if you must."
Sorry but I couldn't help imagining you as the fake health inspector from Fawlty Towers while reading your comment.
I do agree with you though, talking is great, we are social animals even though modern life allows us to forget this, to our own detriment.
Of course, not everyone wants to talk while in public, and not everyone knows how to politely decline a conversation. That's also fine, everyone's somewhere on the social spectrum(s).
Until you run into an A-hole whose response ruins the rest of your day when you were just trying to be sociable. I could even see getting physically assaulted for trying to talk to the wrong stranger. I like where your heart is at, unfortunately many people out there are not deserving of it.
The idea of practicing these random interactions is also to get accustomed to rejections from the assholes.
After all, they aren’t the majority- most people are actually quite nice and often appreciate a company (or will politely tell you they don’t need one)
Agreeable comments will draw comparatively fewer replies, while disagreeable ones achieve the opposite.
But this then results in a "false experience" for the individual, where unlike in real life, the bad exchanges do not end up outweighed by the good ones, as you simply don't go on to have those. You just upvote and move on (often to avoid redundancy).
Maybe if the two were tied together (voting either up / down & sending a reply), communities would work healthier? I don't know. Not like it's easy to have this tried out.
I could definitely see challenges to this though, the aforementioned redundancy being one. I have some countermeasure ideas, but then I wonder if that would make the UX complicated enough to drive people away instead, which is a lose-lose.
Yeah, some of the responses in this thread I hope are just jokes. Asking someone how their day is going is bare minimum social behavior that should carry zero risk of anything.
I mean, why does it ruin your day? It's just some random person - you'll likely never see them again, or you'll know to avoid them in the future. Why is the opinion of some rando weighing on you so much?
This whole thread is about wanting to talk with strangers because it makes you feel good, if approval from strangers makes you feel good the natural corollary is rejection from strangers can also make you feel bad. It would be bit weird to go out of your way to talk to people because you'd enjoy their kindness but then when they're unkind turn around all like "oh I never cared about you anyway". Isn't it?
have you had actually negative interactions like that? they sting for years, even after hundreds of mild-to-positive ones. the brain focuses on risk-minimization and not reward-maximization.
My brain on a Monday in a crap mood driving on the highway: that jerk that just cut me off has ruined my entire day.
My brain on Friday after good sleep and a relaxing morning: heh look at the guy, he's definitely in a hurry. Hope he gets where he's going, back to my jams!
I try to train myself to remember to be Friday brain, but sometimes Monday brain comes out and I'm in a funk that makes me forget I actually have a choice about NOT reacting a specific way. I like to think I'm getting better at consistently not sweating the small stuff and just letting those instances go without giving them an appreciable amount of mental space better suited to relaxing and listening to good music.
I have tried this at various times. But, while some people are lovely, there are some that are miserable and there are plenty that are simply... uninterested. When you are slightly awkward, not particularly attractive, and not wealthy, you have to get used to people just turning away, avoiding eye contact, expressing mild cues of disgust, and so forth. It's really quite painful to try.
It's great as long as they don't turn out to be a creep. And that's terrible advice for practicing talking to women. Talking to a person you're attracted to, or want anything from in general, isn't going to present the same way. No matter how much you practice. Attractive women have to deal with that, all day, every day. They'll shut it down quickly if they're not interested. You'll be the creep if you don't quietly take the hint, and walk away, when they're not.
An old guy sat at the table next to mine at an outdoor cafe. I don't remember what I said to start the conversation but he told me he'd lived in Japan for 3yrs in the 50s, married a Japanese woman, they moved to Redondo Beach and she convinced him to buy a house more than they could afford. He said it was the best decision of their lives. He then said she'd past away a few years ago and they had no kids.
I ask him what he thought of the population crisis Japan is facing. He said said that was bullshit and that 8 billion people in the world are way too many.
Why so quick to moralize? What makes you think your perspective on world population is justified and his isn't?
This could have been an opportunity for both of you to understand each other's perspective. That's why you asked their thoughts on the matter right? It's a shame you let that pass you by.
I asked his thoughts on the matter because I assumed he didn't want to see Japan end since he had a connection to it. But, he didn't give a fuck if they ended, nor Korea.
And if you think they'y aren't ending, you need to go look at the numbers and then look at the double speak on solutions. There are no known solutions. Every solution requires a miracle that has never happened.
Thank you for explaining. Could be he's a misanthrope, through life experiences or such.
I share the same sentiments as you, it'd be a tragic loss. But saying they'd "end" is well, unlikely. The countries will shrink. Japan population could reach 60M by 2100 if nothing is done. That's still a lot of people and by then other factors will dominate and fertility may rise again.
Humans are adaptive and a lot can change in half a century, so I would not overly index on what projections say. Everything would need to stay static for the projections to matter, which given the rate of technological changes and geopolitical tension, sounds likely.
That was rather rude I think, why'd you stop talking to him instead of the purpose of communication - learning about other people? Killing conversations because of a difference of opinion - and one where you didn't even explore the reasonings - is why the world is becoming more and more polarised.
While I don't agree about population either way, in my lifetime it's grown from about 3 billion to over 8 billion. This has been quite a ride. Also, there's a world of a difference between global carrying capacity with responsible aliens managing, and our current management.
This is me. I learned to not talk to strangers because 80% of the time I just get disappointed. Either I need to reflect my disagreement with their (imo) stupid takes or just be unauthentic and agree.
Yesterday I got stuck with this kind of stranger for 3 hours for work stuff. It was just me and him driving. When he started telling racist jokes and expressed his dissatisfaction with human rights I thought here we go again and went for the unauthentic route. As the conversation rolled he became more easy and personal. Told me about his family, his immigration and less nice parts of his life. I felt compassion and it really feels like we ended up being more connected than the beginning.
My recently deceased mother had a talent for talking to anyone at any time in any language. She's always been incredibly social and could establish connections with strangers very rapidly. One time she brought in a school teacher/sheep farmer from Dagestan selling yarn from his sheep's wool, she met him at the market and bought all yarn and asked if he had somewhere to stay before going back, and he didn't. He stayed in our house for a couple of nights, and then we visited him in that little village in mountains of Dagestan on a summer vacation, talk about going back a few centuries in time, an incredible and unusual experience.
I've had to spend week and a half battling Gmail daily email account limits sending batches of 500 emails just to notify people in her address book, receiving hundreds of responses. Her memorial was attended by hundreds of people.
It served her very well in her chosen career of real estate sales, although I think she'd might have done really well in community organizing or even politics where those skills are also very useful.
On the flip side, it was sometimes difficult to be there as family wanting some attention, since her bright light was always shining in many directions.
I've inherited just some of that talent, and I think it is a talent, but trainable.
It is fascinating to be around such social people. I still remember my great-uncle as a kid. He lived a very simple live as a rural farmer in Germany. He did not have a wife, and he didn‘t have kids, but he had a deep tie to his family and everyone around him. When he passed away during my teens, there were hundreds of people attending his funeral. I was amazed by the impact he must have had on all their lives given they‘ve taken time out of their day to give him a last farewell.
I also notice the generational gap the author of this article highlights. My parents are in their 50s, my brother and I are in our mid 20s.
My parents still have their friends from school, from their apprenticeships and different times of their lives. We can‘t go anywhere in a 100km radius without my dad knowing someone. In school I literally had bus drivers ask me if I am <dad‘s name> son, not because they heard my name, but because we look so much alike.
When looking into my brothers and my life, most of our friends from school left for far away. Things my parents considered normal back in their days, are now considered weird. While my parents still experience an incredibly supportive circle of friends, I would not know who to invite to my hypothetical wedding tomorrow.
Granted, I may be an extreme example. But even when looking more generalized among my peers, most of the friendships we have seem to be significantly more superficial and also fewer than our parents.
> I've had to spend week and a half battling Gmail daily email account limits sending batches of 500 emails just to notify people in her address book, receiving hundreds of responses. Her memorial was attended by hundreds of people.
I love this story, because I had the same experience. When my dad passed, I had the same 500 email limitation, and had to send out multiple waves of emails through Gmail. He was loved by so many people!
I talk to everyone. My friends and family joke that it’s impossible for me to go anywhere without getting into conversation with someone. I can’t imagine not doing it. Earlier this year I walked down the main shopping street it the part of the large city where I live, with a colleague from out of town.
A few shopkeepers waved through their windows as I went past, the greengrocer came out of his shop to have a quick chat, the dry cleaner asked after my dog, and the guy from the household shop told me they have more of the cleaning paste I use. We bumped into a couple of folk I see every couple of weeks, then got a coffee and I paid the “special” rate rather than the rate on the sign that they charge people they don’t know.
My colleague said - half jokingly - “I didn’t realise you were mayor”, and tried to convince me that I should go into local politics. She couldn’t understand when I said that would take all the pleasure out of it, because talking to people would become transactional rather than joyous.
I can’t imagine not talking to people. A while back I changed the route I take when I walk my dogs each day, and the guy who runs the local fish stall started asking people if I had left the area or died. I don’t buy fish from him each week- but every time I see him stop and we have a chat.
I feel incredibly lucky to be missed by my fishmonger just because I started walking my dogs a different route.
I grew up in a tiny village in the country. The building I live in has hundreds of people living in it, compared to the few dozen houses where I grew up. I think talking to people makes a huge city feel smaller.
You can never go wrong with genuinely asking someone how their day is going. If someone doesn't want to talk it's very easy for them to shutdown the conversation and move on. But, I find most of the time people are dying to talk about how good/bad their day is going.
Think of it this way. Everyone's favorite topic is themselves. Give someone an opportunity to talk about themselves and most people will take it. The nuance that takes practice is not peppering the person with questions. Ask, give them time to respond, and then maybe say something from your own day and ask a follow up to something they said. That way you keep them doing most of the talking, but it's not an interrogation.
As for the awkward part, embrace it! I can be super awkward so I just run towards it. "Ending a random convo is always awkward for me, so I'll just say it was nice to chat and maybe chat again sometime." Usually there's a chuckle and done.
A few things I do: I'll point something out, and ask a question. So if I'm in a shop I'll saying something like "I've never seen that before - is it popular?"
If I'm getting a coffee if the barista says "How are you?" Rather than just saying something non-committal I'll say "I'm good thanks, it looks like you're having a busy day/quiet day - has it been like this all day?" or I'll ask a question about the beans (if it's the sort of place they regularly rotate through different beans) or I'll ask what the music that's playing is, or something like that. You can immediately tell if someone wants to continue the conversation. And obviously, if it's busy I won't try to engage them in a longer conversation unless they seem to want to.
If I'm waiting for a bus or a train asking someone "Do you know if this one goes to....{destination}?" is an easy start - obviously, even if you know it does, and you want to talk to someone, it's a good start. And then you can say "Thanks, that's really helpful, I'm going to {destination} so that I can {do a thing}. How about you - are you going anywhere nice today?"
The key thing is knowing whether someone is open to a longer conversation. That's something you can only learn by pushing through the awkwardness of people shutting you down and turning away, or making it clear they don't want to talk.
But when they do, it's almost always very enjoyable, even if it's only a few minutes.
It's amazing the difference you'll find if you go to the same shops/places regularly and make the effort to exchange a genuine human interaction with the people you meet - they remember you, and they make an effort to do things to please you. That's not why I do it, it's a positive consequence.
I think the biggest thing is to have the conversations with people with no agenda. You're not trying to achieve something, you're just exchanging a pleasant interaction with someone, and hopefully you both leave feeling a little more connected to the world.
And always ending by saying something like "Well, it was nice talking to you! See you around!/have a lovely day/something".
If you can leave people feeling like you liked the interaction, you'll gradually feel like the interactions are pleasant.
When I encounter people with dogs I always do a smooch sound to the dog and keep going, automatic at this point. Usually where I am they are driving by or in shopping centers. If outdoors I will say hi to owners also but usually just the dogs are greeted.
It doesn't really matter what you have to say or ask - basically the point of small talk is to express to people "I like you!". Just try to find something to like and the conversation comes (not always, but usually)
> talking to people would become transactional rather than joyous
Only if you let it! I am guessing you would do well, because people can absolutely tell when you are being a smarmy politician and when you're actually a legitimately friendly, decent person.
It’s still tainted though. Even if OP buries that underlying transaction, the other people he is talking to might (like I would) assume OP is bullshitting to placate me and secure my vote.
Having the kind of network and connections you do connects you with the actual needs of your community
At which point, it's not necessarily Transactional, but fostering connection and collaboration in order to create win-win situations for everyone in your community.
Should be, absolutely. But isn’t where I am. People who go into local politics here seem to be interested in elevating their profile, having influence, or money.
> She couldn’t understand when I said that would take all the pleasure out of it, because talking to people would become transactional rather than joyous.
It doesn't have to and I suspect that's why your colleague suggested it. Politicians act that way because that's what people want except they don't want someone who is acting.
You have what politicians pretend to have because it makes people like them.
You might be a terrible politician for other reasons but I don't think what you've said is true.
There are plenty of politicians who get into politics precisely because they love interacting with everyone.
It doesn't take the pleasure out of it, it doesn't make it transactional. It just gives them incredible job fulfillment, at least in that part of it.
Bill Clinton was famous for this. It was incredibly frustrating to his staff because he was constantly late for his next event, because he always wanted to keep talking to the people he'd just met. They'd have to build in buffer time to plan around it, because otherwise it wound up disrupting his schedule and logistics too much.
I'm surprised by all the people saying they dislike transactional talk. Voluntary trades are positive sum by definition, so a good transactional conversation should also be a joyous one.
I would have rather said he was arguing with who you about who you each think you can be. That is different. The question is whether or not you think you can remain a genuine and caring person while being a politician.
Genuinely curious as someone who wants to improve… what the hell do you talk about?
I’m trying to picture the random people I encounter while walking my dog, for example. Neighbors who I don’t know. That’d be a great place to start up a convo as I walk by but I draw a complete blank.
The weather?
Do some self disclosure? Or make something up? Be silly?
"oh it's such a nice day innit? It's a shame the lizard people won bingo but we'll get them next time eh?"
Be silly, get a laugh, and hopefully things unfold from there. Give a compliment! Or share something you're excited about. Imo Self-disclosure is the simplest route towards spurring conversation.
Think of conversation as a medium through which gifts are given. Through giving gifts, bonds are forged.
1. Talk about them. Start by paying attention to them. Then when you notice something that was clearly an intentional choice on their part, say something nice about it. Listen carefully to what they say, and follow up in response without filtering yourself.
2. Talk about us. Notice some aspect of experience that you are both sharing. The weather is the most popular and safest topic.
It makes me sad that my reaction to this piece is so cynical, but I really think that 90% of the "how" in this article is "be an older British lady". If you're missing that vital piece you'll quickly meet many people who "don't have any money", or just remembered they meant to be walking on the other side of the street, or worse. Talking to strangers when people see you as a threat feels really shitty (for everyone involved) and can be dangerous.
I think you're wrong personally. I'm very far away from being "an older British lady" and agree a lot with the article.
Honestly, in the least combative & confrontational possible, your thoughts there are just an excuse to not reach out and engage with the rest of your world. It's a little sad (not you, the situation itself) because if more people had that same thought, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy with no one talking to each other and those people you allude to being an afraid to talk too for whatever reason become the only people out there talking. We're certainly not there yet and I hope we never get there
I agree that it's a sad state of affairs, and a self-fulfilling prophecy. Maybe I can explain my perspective in a little more detail.
In my typical day at work (teacher), I spend hours talking with dozens of people. A large part of why I chose this work was to escape the isolation that I felt previously when I was doing remote software work. I attend weekly religious services and make an effort to stay for the social hour afterwards. When I go to parties, I don't feel like I have an unusually hard time talking with people. I'm not always as engaged with the world as I'd like, but I don't feel that I'm avoiding it either.
But this article isn't broadly about having conversations with new people: it's about approaching strangers in public settings one-on-one (the article mentions a bus stop, the street, and a mostly empty train carriage), where there's no expectation of social interaction. This is a different situation with its own set of pitfalls. Nobody is going to assume that I'm trying to rob them when I introduce myself at Quaker meeting. No one is going to think I'm a creep for asking a student about their hobbies while I'm at school. We don't see articles about people getting shot for starting up a conversation at a party.
But all of that goes out the window in the settings that the author describes. It's funny, the author mentions feeling like it was "rude and unsafe" to start a chat during the pandemic. I felt like talking to strangers in public got much easier during the pandemic, when people were desperate for any sort of in-person conversation. It's the normal times when this sort of interaction feels rude and unsafe.
Maybe I'm too pessimistic, maybe it would be fine for me to let my guard down a little. I think that loneliness is a huge issue these days and I'm grateful for the efforts people are making (including the author of the article) to address it. But approaching strangers in public in the way the author describes is a special case that is *much* more fraught than other types of social interaction, and is a lot harder for certain people to do successfully. I wish it weren't that way, and maybe it's worth pushing back against, but that doesn't change the current reality. Some people might not feel this way, but they're probably the people for whom it's not true.
This was an interesting perspective, thanks for sharing it. Its all very geographical context dependent I suspect and that's where difference in perspective can be quite different.
One thing though is why you see new people as any different than strangers? I'm not a Quaker or ever attended a quaker meeting (but have always liked the ethos of the vibe) so don't know how that goes. But i've spent time in christian churches in my younger days and even though we were all there for the same reason, those people were still also strangers. Some already had their cliques they'd speak to and catch up with and I'm sure if someone outside that spoke to them the same double take that initially occurs talking to any new person or stranger would still occur there. Some people would want to continue chatting, some people would rather just talk to whoever they were talking to before. But its still fundamentally the same thing as talking to (or attempting to talk to and being shutdown by) someone doing the same thing you are currently doing, whether that's being on a train or sitting at a cafe etc.
At church or during social gatherings in a friend's home, there is a certain set of expectations of behavior which are much more well defined and widely understood than the behavior you can expect from random people traveling though the NYC streets or subway.
There are settings where I'm much more likely to engage in conversation with a random stranger than others, because I know it's far less likely that they will react unpredictably and/or try to scam/hurt me.
Again maybe its a geographical thing since I don't live in NYC, but I have visited several times, so i have narrower perception of this. My view and experience is that its far more likely that engaging with a random stranger that they will either politely ignore you, go on their way than react unpredictably and/or try to scam/hurt you. Similarly, its more likely that they will respond to you (even if its a throwaway reply and thats that) than react unpredictably. A society where those two statements aren't true doesnt exist as it would be complete chaos with no interaction between anyone at all
>First, there is no such thing as a [socially] successful person who has never ever creeped anyone out. Give yourself permission to be creepy. I am not saying that you should go around trying to creep people out; of course, if you know something is going to scare someone, you shouldn’t do it; it is best that one avoid becoming Harvey Weinstein. But miscommunications, awkwardness, and misunderstandings happen. Sometimes people make mistakes. You are not going to become Harvey Weinstein by accident. Most people have interacted with someone who has creeped them out at some point, and it does not exactly cause lifelong damage. And while there can be some negative consequences, particularly of creeping people out at work, if you ask [about] a random stranger['s day] at a bookstore or something and they’re creeped out, you know what will happen? Absolutely nothing. The [social] police will not come lock you up for creepiness in the third degree.
Lightly adapted from [1], which is actually the best article online about how to find love and date.
I completely agree with you here, you are being considerate and aware. There are times and places where things are more appropriate and although I do think we can all benefit in lowering our guard and being more brave in having conversations with others. I disagree with the other poster about how every good socially successful person has creeped someone out, I think this is always something we should be considerate about and not just take it as a fact. Conversations involve two people, and we should always be considerate of the other instead of using it transactionally to further our own growth at their expense. I also really dislike the shared source of where their idealogy comes from (alpha male.. yuck). I think you are participating in your community and talking to many people, if you find that you'd like to lower your guard and talk to strangers, I have a strong feeling that what is intuitive to you would be the right thing to do
It's interesting because it's undoubtedly true that bias and prejudice affect one's interactions with the world. At the same time, it's true to that this can contribute to a vicious cycle via self-fulfilling prophecy.
I would say that sometimes you have to make a distinction between truths about the world and beliefs that can be helpful to you personally; sometimes these are in contradiction with each other, so you may find that you have to prefer to fiction to the truth in order to achieve better results.
This seems to be very common and accepted wisdom in the world of sports: a weaker opponent going against a stronger opponent may have virtually no chance of success, but they can marginally improve those chances via "belief."
So be an older British lady? You get to decide how people see you. Hair, clothes, body language, smile, is 90% of how people decide whether they want to interact with you.
When I dye my hair all kinds of colors, random people talk to me (and the specific colors even dictate who talks). When I dress up in a suit, people treat me more seriously. When I dress like a contractor and drive my truck, regular dudes talk to me at gas stations. And when I dress queer, women (and some dudes) smile at me.
I'm not even outgoing personality-wise, which would help more. Personality's the mental equivalent of physical appearance. Think of it like acting: actors pretend to be a certain way, and if it feels genuine, it makes us love or hate them, intrigued or bored. It's a lot more work than changing clothes, but it works no matter what you wear.
I don't think older British lady is in the cards for me but I get your point. One of my friends has a dog (a very cute little yorkie) who I take on walks fairly often. Let me tell you: I get so many people coming up to me wanting to talk when I'm out walking that dog. It's like I'm suddenly transported to a different universe where people are 100x more sociable.
It makes sense: people love dogs. It gives us something in common and is a starting point for conversation. And people with cute dogs seem much less threatening.
But I also kind of resent it. I wish people would want to talk to me when I'm just me.
Don’t feel bad please. There’s a flip side to all these sociable people which you are sensing. It’s the fallacy of “winning friends and influencing people”. Suppose you are sociable and use the tricks to get to know people (take an interest in their interest, ask for favors, etc) the reality is it will almost never be reciprocated. You get a bunch of people to like you but they will never know you because they’re pitiful and shallow. After a while you will resent them and just skip it all.
> You get to decide how people see you. Hair, clothes, body language, smile, is 90% of how people decide whether they want to interact with you.
I see what you're getting at, but also this take kinda annoys me because it falls into the bucket of implying a personal fault. If people don't socialise with you then it must be because you do or don't do X, Y, Z. "Just do X" and you'll become a social butterfly.
Based on my personal experience, I don't know if I buy it. I guess I'm a regular enough guy, but seriously almost never, across my whole life, does someone invoke random socialisation with me. Yet I know people who can't even take the bus without strangers striking up conversations and hassling them, while they are actively trying to be antisocial. What magic trick are these people performing? Can I learn the same trick? What if I don't want to perform it? I think the reality is that for some (many?) people, it just doesn't work out and it's not necessarily due to any particular flaw.
As someone who both experienced phases in life where no one approached me and phases were I get approached regularly, it's a mix of external signifiers and some internal woo stuff that people don't really understand conciously. Or said another way, when someone says you have to "look approachable" what they actually mean is that a) you have to present yourself externally in a way that makes people more likely to engage you (the aforementioned hair, clothes etc.) and b) you have to internally be open to the world (which is what dictates your body language in subtle ways that apparently get picked up). The issue is when someone says something like "have an open body language" is that it's impossible to 24/7 fake a certain type of body language, you actually have to believe it.
If you are naturally a distrusting person people will pick up on it, just how people will pick up if you're naturallly an open person. (The true trick is realizing that "naturally" can be changed)
I do see what you mean but again I'm not sure if I buy it, because it still sounds pretty meritocratic. I have been through times in life with severe social anxiety and times without, and the quantity of approach hasn't really changed. And doesn't explain the people who get approached even when trying to be closed off (I mean just listen to women complain how they're constantly hounded by men no matter what they do).
Also, what about neurodivergent people who may express their openness/closedness somewhat differently? Are they screwed no matter what?
I won't say you can't do anything to influence your approachability, but I really do think there is a very large component which is essentially fixed, and people rarely acknowledge this (which is annoying).
It's not fixed. It's like anything hard that doesn't come naturally. You may wish you were a guitarist, but actually playing guitar well is really hard. You have to work at it, over and over, for months/years. But if you can move your fingers, you can learn to play guitar. It just won't come quickly or easily, and you may decide you'd rather skip it.
As part of a smalltalk training, we had to go out and approach strangers in the public. I entered a tram to try my luck. As soon as as I sat down, someone else started to talk to me, and we had a nice conversation. I didn't even need to break the ice myself. So I can (anecdotally) confirm that people can perceive if you want to connect or rather want to be left alone.
Yeah. That's something I constantly worry about. If I'm in a random scene, most people don't want a large black man approaching them. The calculus completely changes.
That's why I gotta pick my venues. But those venues are shrinking and growing farther apart.
I went through a phase where I forced myself to socialise a lot to overcome social awkwardness and anxiety. Was well worth it, both in terms of leveling up my social skills but also in terms of eventually becoming very comfortable with myself.
The main ingredient, at least for me, was being determined enough to push through the discomfort. A lot of the early interactions were awkward, sometimes overtly uncomfortable, but that's an unavoidable part of the learning process (and I took a key lesson from it - it's okay to look like a dork, usually it's only our inner critic that turns it into an immortal sin).
Nowadays I feel a pang of sympathy when I see someone feeling shy or speaking in self-deprecating terms. I remember how that felt, and I remember how easy it would have been to have stayed inside that box for the rest of my life.
I am still at the awkward early interaction stage.
How do you know what to say?, usually I can start the conversation but I don’t know where to take it after. How are you able to shift to the next stage when you have both agreed that the weather today is nice.
How do you get over the feeling that you are wasting their time?
Finally, how do you end the conversation when you're still going in the same direction or waiting at the same place?
> How do you know what to say?, usually I can start the conversation but I don’t know where to take it after.
Some ideas:
Ask what they’re passionate about.
Talk about what you’re passionate about.
Say you’re trying to improve yourself and ask if there is anything they’ve learned lately about life that you should know.
Ask for their advice/opinion on a recent problem you’ve faced or something that surprised you recently.
>How do you get over the feeling that you are wasting their time?
First, hold up a mirror: do you feel your time is wasted when someone talks to you? Second, everyone benefits from bonds and talking enables trust. Even if the relationship is temporary, it brings comfort. Think of two people at an airport going out on different planes. Even a short conversation with someone makes them trust enough to let the other watch their heavy luggage while they go to the bathroom.
>Finally, how do you end the conversation when you're still going in the same direction or waiting at the same place?
Yeah, this is always a little awkward. You can just say something like “It’s been nice talking to you. I’m going to go back to reading my book.” Sometimes I’ll make a polite fib like saying I’ve got to think about an important presentation or have some pressing emails that I need to read.
You've created problems that don't exist. They're concerns that most people don't have.
You don't know what to say. That's fine.
You might be wasting their time. That's fine.
You might not know how to end the conversation. That's fine.
It's ok to be awkward. It's ok to be honest. It's ok to bother people as long as you take their feedback appropriately. It's ok to walk away without saying anything.
The more often that you talk to people and actively reflect on the REAL outcomes of it, the sooner you'll realize those concerns aren't shared by most other people.
Well if I don't know what to say, I either don't start a conversation or I can use some opener like "How are you?" and then end the conversation (because I don't know what to say). But then what is the point?
Myself, I tend to ask with open question, a good ice breaker is: "Hey mate, hows your day going on a scale of 1-10?"
That gives them a chance to take a break and think. If they say three, you put yourself in their shoes. "Hey, that sucks. what's going on?" just lending a warm comforting subtle "I'm around right now if you want to talk"
If they give you a higher number, inquire why. "Wow, a 7? That's great. How come?" Both results in giving them option to speak. You compliment in both situations, a win win. If they return with a single closing statement acknowledge it and move on, "all the best".
If you need to end, a simple of "hey, it was great talking. I've got my coffee it was a pleasure talking to you while I waited, I've got to take off but it was a pleasure to talk".
You cater it to the situation you're in. If they want to talk then they will, if they don't then they won't.
Those forced conversations have a shelf-life because they’re artificial.
Note, rather, how friends converse and how little scripting is involved. When two good friends meet they don’t say their profession, or academic rank, or ask interrogatory questions. They exchange enthusiasm for each others presence and the conversation tends towards exchanges of perspective/experience and reflection thereof. Statement, vibes, counter-statement(?), more vibes.
That kind of familiar, friendly, approach to conversation is always available and short circuits the scripts. It efficiently probes for people who want to talk and what they want to talk about. It also tends to involve a lot of dumb-yet-charming assertions about the current situation, which takes awareness not planning. A ‘sense’ of humour, not a tight 5 locked and loaded. “Fuck, now that’s a lineup…” isn’t a refined piece of social engineering, but it’s a serviceable conversation starter and the least important part if you’re still talking three hours later.
I came to think of it like skilling up at a game. For instance the one I'm most familiar with, Counterstrike. When you first play Counterstrike you're clueless - you don't know where to aim, you don't know how to control the guns, it's a mess. How do you fix that? Practice. Lots of practice.
So if you don't know what to say, the basic answer is to keep practicing. Your subconscious will eventually figure it out. (Edit: by practice I mean live practice with real people in the world - not on your own in your own head)
As for myself, here's the place I came to: I be myself and I say what I want to say, and for social calibration I rely on my subconscious.
I also let go of trying to control the outcome. The questions you're asking rest atop of wanting the social encounter to go a certain way - you want it to be "successful". Let go of that expectation and just let it organically be whatever it is - that is, take your hands off the driving wheel a bit.
The final bit is a confidence thing - feeling good about yourself, feeling that you have value (your bit about wasting other people's time hints that you somehow feel low on yourself). For that it's the Mike Tyson quote - "success begets confidence and confidence begets success". For me there was a feedback loop where the practice started to feed into social success - people enjoying my company, successful dates with women, and so on.
That final part's a very important ingredient as your subconscious needs the markers of success to latch onto as positive feedback signals on "what works". So basically you have to keep pushing and practicing until you reach the point where you get dividends. As for how long it takes to get there, it varies by individual - some are quick learners, some are slow, some have less handicaps, some have more.
But in principle I believe that most people can learn to be charming and good company.
Honestly, it doesn't really matter what you say. It's mostly about body language and not seeming like a threat (smile).
You can talk about whatever. Tell them about a movie you just saw and ask them about recommendations. Ask them for restaurant or dinner suggestions. Tell them about that article you just read which you found intereting.
If they are open to small talk, they will drop some tidbits that you can spring off on. Conversation is a two way street. If they don't seem interested in keeping the conversation going, tell them to have a nice day and carry on with yours.
I usually avoid strangers, because those who talk to you are usually weirdos.
Thing is, if normal people don't talk to strangers anymore, then only the weirdos are left, reinforcing the idea that only weirdos talk to strangers...
+1 In any major city it's probably 90% chance they're either a crook trying to scam you out of something or mentally not quite right. The remaining 10% will be tourists or people from outside of the major city.
"Someday - and that day may never come" - they will be asking for something. Now you are on talking terms and it will be harder to refuse the ask, compared to the request of a complete stranger.
This is sad but not inconsistent with my experience. Though I think 10% is actually the people who genuinely want to have a nice conversation. and I think that worth putting up witrh the rest 90% for.
I understand what both of you are saying, I lived in areas where if someone is talking to you on the street theres a high chance theyre asking you for something, so you learn to just kinda block all of it out. Now that I moved to a smaller town, I find myself talking to strangers much more frequently.
In my experience, only weirdos never speak to strangers. Social skills are easy, conversations are easy and strangers are just people you don’t know yet.
I still can’t understand the point of this. Do you get a charge telling social anxious people they’ll be weird if they do their homework? That’s precisely what you did. Why?
I live in NYC. Maybe this is different in the suburbs. Nearly 100% of the people that approach me are trying to get something from me. Scam me, get me to sign something I don't want to sign, get me to donate my money to save the dogs/children/etc.
If someone on the street tries to talk to me, I try to avoid even looking at them or acknowledging them. They'll use that as an opening. Just keep walking.
I lived in NYC for a decade. This is very true on the street, but less true waiting in a subway station, and even less true in a neighborhood bar. The more public, there is a “market for lemons” effect in conversation. The more it resembles a private club or a group suffering a common injustice, the more reliably good the conversation is. A crowd on an MTA platform where a train hasn’t shown up in 50 minutes can get pretty chatty.
Well, that's your experience. Some people live in places where most strangers that talk to you are wierdos. Some of us live in places where most strangers on the street are actually dangerous (and I'm not talking about NYC or any place in America, I'm talking about actual criminal hotspots, which is the reality of a huge portion of humanity you probably don't think about).
One of the best pieces of advice I can give, something that has helped me start talking more with strangers, is this:
When I’m speaking to someone in a service role, like a waiter, a cashier, or a salesperson, I remind myself that I’m just one of hundreds of people they interact with that day. To them, I’m simply another brief interaction. So if I say something awkward or if the conversation doesn’t flow perfectly, it’s not a big deal. It’s probably just one small, forgettable moment in a long series of conversations they will have that day.
Thinking about it that way helps me relax and not put so much pressure on myself. At the same time, some of the most meaningful or unexpected opportunities can come from simple conversations with strangers. You never really know what a small interaction might lead to, whether it is a new connection, a new perspective, or even an open door you did not see before.
When the service worker and you do the back and forth of "How are you doing today" - "Fine, you?" - "Fine"
Yeah don't do that, try out this phrase "It's my Monday" [0] instead of "Fine, you?"
You'll typically have them telling you what day of their work week they are in which is not usually the actual day of the week! Because managers schedule people in service positions in wacky ways.
That little bit of human connection around labor and work, man it does wonders. They know you know what it's like, that you see them as a person, and you care a little bit. Really gets the conversation going if there isn't too much of a line.
[0] Use any day of the week, but do use a weekday. Monday or Friday works best though.
My kids make fun of me because I know the shopkeepers around me by first name, along with the details of their businesses , and that shopping takes forever because I talk to everyone, customers included.
I just love it, it’s easy and I get a lot in return - from perks to incredible encounters. At work it’s been very helpful.
I developed that skill while traveling alone for a year , and it boils down to practicing and reading whether the person you’re talking to is ok with your talking or not.
And now because I know them I go there because I can buy my stuff but also spend five minutes chatting and that makes going grocery shopping a real joy. And because I go there and chat they do nice things like give me a couple of tomatoes or “you’ve got to try this cake” or the wine shop where I automatically get a 15% discount, or the butcher where they let me in when are already closed but they know I’ve come over specially.
And some of those people have become real friends, like go and have dinner together friends. We have very different lives but we get on because we get on. I think everyone benefits from reaching out of their bubble a bit.
If I’m feeling a bit glum I’ll go out to buy bread or something because I know just seeing the people I see regularly will lift me up.
It's interesting, because while having that skill is helpful I think part of the issue a lot of people have is an overturned sense for it - they will be worried they are getting judged for wasting their counterparts time.
It's good to have, but don't let not having it (yet) stop you!
It is a hard skill, but I do recommend it. I have always struggled with initiating a conversation with a stranger, but 99 times out of 100 it has turned out well. My teenage daughter just stands there agape when I do it, she is still struggling even to speak up to the cashier taking her fast food order. I keep telling her that it makes me pretty nervous too, but it is so worth taking the little leap.
I had a long conversation with a fellow parent sitting next to me at soccer practice today. Never met her before in my life, but we just started chatting about soccer logistics, and then I just started asking her about her life. I learned about her 5 kids, her tough relationship situation with her spouse of 16 years, her having moved here from Arkansas as a child, her feelings about how gentrification damaging local communities, her dream of moving out of the USA to another country, how there are the same kinds of social problems most places, how we can come to empathize more with our parents as we get older, and probably more things too I'm not remembering. These are the kinds of things you can talk about if you happen to have good rapport with someone and they feel like it...
I won't say I have conversations with strangers like that all the time, but it is 100% possible, and a lot of people really do appreciate it if you bother to talk to them. People often like being asked about themselves (I used to do cultural anthropology research so I have had quite a bit of practice too...).
There are of course reasons why it doesn't always work or becomes awkward. For example, gender is a factor - a significant part of the population is much more comfortable having same-sex conversations with strangers - not to mention other sociological factors around race, class, nationality, all the obvious things.
I'm not an extrovert. Introversion itself was probably more of a euphemism that I used to rationalize something closer to social anxiety.
But I feel I'm better off now for doing what the article suggested, over the last 5-6 years. Doing so improved my knowledge, my empathy, grew my revenue, built larger professional networks, introduced me to hobby networks, and helped with better financial planning.
I even changed to the extent of actually looking forward to outreach activities that involve a lot of conversations. I find them very satisfying because they help me understand social realities and people better than social media and books and help me develop empathy.
I wouldn't say I'm now an extrovert. My personality still prefers a lot of alone time. There are times when I still don't feel like talking to anyone. But they're now for positive reasons like books to finish rather than negative reasons like social anxiety.
I now tend to see things like introversion and social anxiety as obstacles. One can rationalize them in many ways but they'll remain objective obstacles IMO.
Welcome, but your point hasn't been proved at all actually. Your point was that this sort of stuff is imposed upon you by a "dictatorship of extroverts."
But I'm not an extrovert and not supportive of a dictatorship of extroverts. For example, I'm not a fan of imposed socializing of office coworkers outside the office in order to fit in.
Regarding "for some reason," it's quite obvious - you made a mistaken assumption and that's the only reason I came here to gave a counter example and a counter view to your wrong assumption. I wouldn't have written any of this as a top comment.
A dictatorship? Are you being forced at gunpoint to talk to people?
Perhaps more unsurprisingly, at the mere suggestion that socializing is good for you (it demonstrably is https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11403199/), you went and wrote a comment that I can only imagine someone who is deeply unhappy would write.
That is not a kind judgment. While I hesitate at the word “dictatorship” it is fair to say that society puts more value on extrovert interaction than introvert contemplation, and it does this because extroverts dominate the social conversation.
the dictatorship is doing extremely badly then because in my experience roughly the last two decades have consisted of safety obsession, various 'cozy' aesthetics that don't involve leaving your house, the death of social drinking and an uptick of pills and psychological diagnoses and people staring into their phones on every occasion.
We've completely normalized being a shut-in to the point where your take, that it's authoritarian to push people out into the world and engage others, is quite common. What now passes for 'extroverted' used to be known as the human condition. Even extroverts today probably have fewer friends, smaller families and spend more time isolated and on screens than 99% of humanity.
I can't agree. I'm pretty sure that we're in dictatorship of introverts that convinced everyone that talking or even eye contact with strangers is creep.
"Reduce human contact to bare minimum" is standard now, at least in America.
I had a recent encounter with a guy in a coffee shop who approached me and wanted to discuss recent sportsball games in great detail. I had no idea what he was talking about, I don't even know the local teams, after living here 30 years. He had no other topics.
I had a friend like that. Soccer soccer soccer. His soccer knowledge was impeccable. But he allowed almost no space in his life for anything else. A kind of addiction. He had no other interests, didn't read about anything else.
There's only so mach a person can take being on the other side of someone like that. We drifted apart...
Yeah, that's issue #2 or 3 with me. My life has pretty much been minmaxed to be the stereotypical nerd. I don't have much "small talk" topics to approach with.
I want to change that too, but that involves time for hobbies instead of job searching and worrying about debt.
I abhor small talk. It's physically painful. I've heard that's often true of some cultures, especially northern europeans.
I think the trick to converse on a more engaging level is to introduce conversation that invites deeper thought. Somehow you need to intrigue the other person. Compel them through curiosity to leave their comfort zone and join you where you'd prefer to be.
IMO, even disagreement can be agreeable if it's not confrontational, if you genuinely express curiosity to learn what they think, what they care about.
I've been subconsciously doing this forever and after hundreds if no thousands of interaction have lately been assessing its outcome as more neutral than the article frames it. On the long run while mildly pleasant, you realise how shallow these conversations are and they have not brought anything valuable to your life. Maybe stopping for a while would lead to further realisation but I don't think so.
The most positive effect it has had on me is to make me enjoy even more deep conversations with my friends.
One of my best stranger conversations talking to a “Big Issue” [1] seller outside a supermarket. As I understand, they’re (close to) homeless usually.
When I asked about him, he mentioned he’s Irish but moved on to tell me about his plans. How he was saving to have a farm, planned what to grow, animals - 15m of quite precise description. His story was his future.
This was striking for me - when asked most people tell you about their past, where they’re coming from. It was the first time I realised that where we’re going should be a bigger part of our story and identity.
I try to keep that conversation in mind as a lesson, and as a reminder to talk to people around.
I've had some great conversations with random strangers on public transport and in shops etc. Oddly I'm a complete introvert with quite bad social anxiety and avoid social events like work parties etc. But I like talking to strangers I'll never see again. I think it's partly because I'm not trying to make an impression and I'm not there just to socialise. So it's a bit crap for me that people are withdrawing and not engaging in random chit chat as much. It's so easy to be lonely these days.
> "As we walked home, my 15-year-old son asked: “Is it OK to talk to people in that way?” “What way?” He was asking about the boundaries when it comes to talking to someone about their home country."
My 13 year old is the opposite. He is always telling me that I talk too much to "strangers" and that "people don't to that". I'm assuming he means his peers.
I've had to force myself to be more social in some instances in order to set an example, specifically for my niece who has/had quite a bit of social anxiety. Being a regular at the local Friday night rollerskating, I got to know quite a few of the other regulars, including younger ones my niece's age, and was able to kind of slowly break down the social anxiety barrier such that my niece is now part of this group of (now) late teens / early 20's "kids" and their social group just seems to keep growing. Seeing my niece able to be comfortably herself with these peers just makes me feel good in the small part I was able to play.
People, in most part, are good. Some are really quite lovely such that it reminds me of Bilbo's birthday speech:
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve"
I'm happy to see that in a sea of commenters who'd hate for anyone to strike a conversation with them, there are people who still enjoy connecting with others.
We are in a public forum afterall and we are all strangers here. I'm always happy when random person sends me an email.
It's indeed pretty interesting how our society has normalized being. what I would say is antisocial by the norms of previous generations in the form of the gen z stare.
Funnilly I remember a situation where I got a job offer from somebody from an older generation and I just stood still and stared for 1 minute. Not because I wanted to be disrespectful but because I was processing the information and I was simply so baffled that I forgot the social dance of showing the thinking on my face and doing thinking sounds (if you know you know). This led to the other person holding a lecture on how you should respond that you do not have a response yet but I thinking. I ended up accepting.
As someone who has struggled with social anxiety over the years and has thought about this a lot, I have some thoughts.
It's all nice to imagine everyone talking to each other, but the reality is that in (western?) society, we have kinda collectively decided that socialisation is to be avoided. Either it's too weird, too boring, or too unsafe. I mean have you tried randomly talking to people? Most don't seem very open to it.
Also it doesn't help that the little "pretext" scenarios that can lead to socialising are being systematically eliminated from our lives.
And finally, if you're neurodivergent or otherwise aren't perfectly typical, enjoy people thinking you're weird anyway.
Yes, there is a pervasive anxiety around strangers and impromptu socializing among younger millennials and Gen Z particularly in North America and parts of Europe, and across age groups in certain subcultures. There are lots of causes for this, but this phenomenon is neither as entrenched nor as universal as you might think and the dangers are basically infinitesimal (zero for all intents and purposes). If you are respectful and mindful of how you engage, the overwhelming majority of people will at worst ignore you. Which sucks, yes, but more than likely they won't even do that, i.e. they'll probably reciprocate
I agree re the pretext scenarios disappearing and re neurodivergence adding extra challenges.
RE the former: there are lots more of these pretext scenarios than you might realize
RE the latter, I realize it's not your point but for what it's worth, you won't really be able to tell in most cases that someone on the street or wherever is or isn't nd. Meaning: there's a good chance that the person you are talking to is nd themselves. Lots of us are pros at masking
In general though i would say to be careful when generalizing about human behavior in a way that causes you to implement and enforce rules / limitations on your own behavior in response. This is unavoidable, right? And yes, there's often an nd component to this. But especially as you get older, these can start to calcify and limit you in increasingly destructive ways
I've always done this. Used to drive my mom nuts at the grocery store just asking people random shit about the stuff they're buying. Have lived all over the US in various downtowns. You can learn so much about a city, what's actually good there, just by asking everyone you can.
Unsure of what a lot of people in this thread are talking about, they have been misled into believing some very antisocial things and do not seem pleasant. Perhaps it is best they stay inside and do not talk to anyone.
I am not an old british lady or a 7ft tall underwear model / pro athlete, I'm just some dude. The closest thing to a change I've experienced is having to be more proactive about smiling or demonstrating that I am not what others have very legitimate cause to fear as of recent. That sucks a lot and makes me quite sad.
Not saying bad things don't happen, but I've certainly never worried about violence up until recently. Unspoken social contracts are being broken by people who have not considered the consequences, my heart breaks for them and what will have to happen next.
The world is much smaller than you realize. If 90% of everyone was crooks or criminals, you would not be posting that shit right now, because you would not be alive. They don't do that because it's bad for business. A lot of what is happening right now is predicated on the concept of there being some amount of business that is okay to lose in exchange for... problematic ideals. Business will win
I don't talk to everyone, on the other side I talk to almost nobody. But I am ready to speak with anyone if they reach me. I have so much experience/knowledge (professional, social, philosophical) that I can support discussions about anything under any occasion. But outside my family and non-sense chat with 3-4 friends I see hardly any interest. Being in this forum provides all new social contact and it's enough for now.
I find the decay of human connections an interesting problem to solve. I used to have an app that encouraged meeting in person by utilizing friends inviting other friends[0]. This solved many app-problems like correct matching and safety.
Didn't catch on, though. Setting up events turned out to be too prohibitive. If this interests anyone feel free to contact me at contact [at] eventful [dot] is
> Talking with strangers is surprisingly informative
I think this should be a key point here, for people motivated by curiosity. I don't seek out conversations with strangers, but when they happen I lean heavily into this aspect.
My pro-tip for talking to strangers is to talk about them; ask where they're from, what they do, how their job works, and so on... They are usually more than happy to carry the conversation, they feel like they're being appreciated for being interesting, and you learn so much.
As a throwaway example, I found out from someone at a bar that composing music specifically for movie trailers is a business in itself, and the creators do not even know what movie or what trailer their music will be used for. They get direction, they deliver the music, and usually only find out when the trailer is released. Isn't that interesting?
And if they ask about you, even easier, you get to feel interesting instead!
I was always very uncomfortable socializing growing up and still am, but just like with anything, it gets easier with practice. (Alcohol helps too, if that's an option!)
Yeah... it's difficult enough to find engaging conversations with people I do know. If you want to talk for the sake of talking, there won't be a shortage of possibilities. And if you are sociable enough, people will do so.
But outside of these parameters? It's very slim picking.
I know what ECDSA is and if you brought it up in a random conversation unprompted I'd try to find your spaceship so I could escape the conversation on it.
Glad to see this here. Age-wise I'm in the oldest 10% of users here, maybe 5%. I have noticed over the years the eroding of the ability of young people (20s basically) to interact in what I consider normal social situations.
Talking to your fellow humans in all sorts of situations is how you can form actual knowledge within yourself derived from direct observation. Everything else is a filter and synthesis. How can you know "reality" if you don't interact with it directly?
I'm 39 myself but it's disturbing how you don't even see kids playing out in the street nowadays - a lot of them are indoors on ipads and the like. I knew all the kids on my block and it was regular to ring each other's doorbells so we could go out and play, which is basically early social skills.
I find the community on Clubhouse understand this better than anyone (well, this is true for Reddit and HN too). Clubhouse especially though because people are bat shit crazy on there and somehow conversations happen. It’s a hidden gem that I think the HN community would enjoy.
I haven't heard of Clubhouse being mentioned in a long time. Last time I checked, it didn't gain traction after 2021 and never heard of the app being mentioned since then.
Are there people still using the app? If so how are they making money?
That the copyright notice on their site still says "2025" probably says a lot. I was kinda expecting to find an AI pivot when I opened that landing page.
For what it’s worth, they are living a AI pivot. TOS just changed so they keep transcripts of all voice and actually pop it into an LLM to subjectively determine your karma points. They are absolutely selling audio data for fine tuning purposes imho, and they are absolutely training on all audio. It’s a AI shovel selling company for sure.
And people wonder why others say we are living in a "low trust society". You can only read a story like this so many times before you decide to simply opt out of society.
What is also fun is to just say 'hi' or 'hello' to random strangers, accompanied by a smile. I usually do that on the sidewalk (western Europe), but other places might also be fair game. I made an active effort to just greet people, now it's a habit. In the beginning I felt rejected sometimes by people blankly staring back at me and not saying 'hi' back.
Some people are not into that, don't suspect it or don't know how to handle that. Like half of this comment section, I really read some cringe comments here about how people don't want to be talked to. To them I can only say: don't worry, I see/feel from miles away that you don't want to be talked to. And even then, I might say 'hi' to you, just to gauge what happens. ;)
For me, it's okay if people don't say anything back. That's not even the point. I want to share a little positivity with the world (when I'm in the mood) and 90% of reactions are either a big smile back, a little nod or even a small conversation. There's nothing for me to 'win' (as a lot of commenters seem to think is the point); thinking in these terms makes it a business transaction.
I found out that especially elderly people are way more open to these things. Also, people who don't seem open to it (probably going through a bad time) might actually surprise you with a warm and welcome smile. These little interactions taught me to not judge a book by it's cover, give a little without expecting anything in return, and just knowing that you made somebody smile who needed that.
So if you think this article is something you want to try, but you're a little afraid thinking about whole conversations and stuff, just start with greeting random people. Don't see it as a transaction, just see it as age old human behavior (which it is). If you have a hard time reading social clues, this also might be a good way to practice that a bit.
I wonder if some of this also has to do with the culture of where you live, because it can go wrong. It reminds me of a BBC comedy skit about someone doing exactly this:
I like the sentiment behind what you've said, and I think you're especially right about elderly people (probably because they don't get much social interaction). I actually had an elderly woman come up to me this week to tell me I was standing in the wrong place for the bus stop - but it was sad that she had to begin by saying "Excuse me, I'm sorry to interrupt, and you can tell me if this is none of my business and that you want me to go rack off... but I don't think the bus will stop here." I tried to be very kind and thankful with my response, because that's obviously someone who has been burned by trying to be social & helpful, and met with aggression in response before.
I speak to everyone when in "work mode". Its part of the job. I smalltalk, im curious, i listen. When off work I dont really want to talk to people at all (outside "my" people, i.e. my family and small group of friends). If someone strikes up a conversation I will of course engage, but I reach a threshold where I run out of gas and have to excuse myself.
I'm the same - work persona is curious, engaged, loves to talk to new people. Off work sometimes this bleeds over, but generally I retreat to my more comfortable introverted self.
It's a valuable skill, so I do sometimes practice trying to adopt the work persona at home, but it really doesn't come naturally.
One thing I've done to improve my communication with strangers is to stop trying to think of the perfect way to start a conversation or question.
Some of the best conversations I've had started by me asking or telling someone something in a awkward or overly simplified way at first. It takes the pressure off of both of you and a more natural conversation takes place as you both work to get on the same page, which takes time and leads to more conversation.
In the past I'd think of the perfect sentence with little nuances and edge cases covered in that sentence to what I was trying to convey, which would result in no real conversation to even take place.
Of course you will run into people who are unfriendly and won't receive this well but overall it's lead to more pleasant and natural conversations.
I agree that expanding communication with strangers is important. But starting with "Do you mind if I sit here? Or did you want to be alone with your thoughts?" and then continuing a conversation for 10+ minutes is a real struggle for me. Sometimes I even wonder—how exactly does this kind of individual conversation actually help me? Maybe this is just me.
Yeah it'll be hard. But with a lot of practice it'll get easier. I think part of the practice is recognizing "they don't want me to continue this conversation" and bailing, vs trying to force every interaction to be a deeper conversation.
I never practiced "idle conversation with a complete stranger" like that because I was lazy. But I did practice making normal, non-sexual, conversation with women on dating sites and dates so that I could go from "isolated in school, then after going online, low response rate and never more than 1 or 2 dates" to someone in a long-term relationship. And recognizing that sort of "ok there's just not any interest here, move along" signal was definitely relevant there too.
Skills take investment.
My parents didn't give me nearly as many opportunities to practice these skills as they had when they grew up, and pop culture actively encouraged me not to talk to strangers as a kid, so I had to work harder at them as an adult. But it was worth it.
That makes me think—why do I enjoy conversations with friends then? What's really the difference between a friend and a stranger? Friends annoy me too, maybe even more often than strangers do.
Your friends are hopefully somewhat invested in you for a non-transactional reason, and have proven to be a non-threat. There's no guarantees with a stranger.
What a bizarre perspective. Have you never gotten any personal value out of a single conversation in your entire life? Have you never made a friend? I don't understand this "all conversations are bad and useless" nonsense. What on earth do you think you're doing on social media?
One of the basic rules of starting conversations with other people is letting the other person do most of the talking. People like talking about themselves. So the old lady in the article violated that rule. That isn't to say that just talking to people instead of actually talking with them will never work. You might be lucky and the person you talk to just happens to be very interested in what you want to tell them, but it is rather unlikely.
Once you have shown that you are interested in someone by listening to them and thereby learning about them, you might sometimes find that they might also be interested in something you can share with them. The easiest way to get someone interested in you is to first get interested in them.
It's a pretty simple principle, but since people like to talk about themselves they often do not follow it.
Also, one thing not mentioned in the article is that, structurally, some of this is a consequence of a growing sense that we live in a low trust society. I don't necessarily think that is true in the small/local sense for many people, but a lot of the media we consume and talk about highlights that so much of society is untrustworthy and that forces many people to close themselves up as a completely rational way of protecting themselves.
I hope more and more people do not continue to believe that, there is so much good out there in the world and we all have to engage it or we're just letting the low trust side win and life becomes a lot less because of that. Everyone already into chatting for chatting sake now and then, please continue to do so. You're doing a world a huge service. The rest not, come join us, the water feels great!
Low trust is easier to sell for, to try to fill in the hole you might have without enough meaningful social interactions; it's easier to market when you don't have anyone in your close circle to talk you out of spending money unnecessarily. It's easier to manipulate when you don't have enough contacts with others to band together against a common enemy.
The dangers of daily life, while real in some way, have been over-represented in the media, and now we're given the tools to completely avoid them. Whether on purpose or not (bad news sell much better than good news, after all), these are the consequences we're just seeing.
>some of this is a consequence of a growing sense that we live in a low trust society.
Exactly. YMMV but that is 100% true in many urban areas. Too many people leads to less meaningful connections. I imagine much of this community lies in those urban hotspots.
>I hope more and more people do not continue to believe that
it's going to continue. Low trust societies are a structural issue, and I see little initiative to fix it. People constantly need to move around due to rising costs of living, there's no commmunity hubs, third places, frequently meeting clubs, etc. to build such community. Work hours are creeping up while compensation and stability is going down. Where would you find the time to meet up?
It's all an economic issue at the end of the day. There's a part of the equation where we don't "need" to work with as many people anymore to get by. But for he most part, it's very similar to the walk-ability issue in the US. There won't be some mass change all at once, but people take cues and change heir habits around heir environment.
For my environment, I'm a night owl and everything in my town is closed by 8pm or so. I don't like the loud environments of bars. So there's nowhere for me to really go.
I hope you're wrong and I think you're being a little defeatist in the assessment of "Little initiative to fix it". But to each is own. From the communities have stayed in, in different places around the world, I find that is not the case and there is still a high trust society in place locally. It's everywhere else outside that that people tend to view as low trust. I always end up thinking to myself that but there's no true way to actually know that everywhere else is low trust when you're not actually there, they're just fighting shadows.
A very particular case is London, which if you live on the internet you would think is some sort of hellscape where everyone is going to stab you or steal your phone on a bike if you dont run between safe spot to safe spot with eyes on your bike. But I've lived there for many years, still have friends there and visit regularly and that is so far from daily life that it is bizarrely amusing that people think that
ok it's a bit late but i think a big part is the non-verbal thing you're putting out.
my story is me and my wife moved to another country a few years ago for my study. after 4 months moving there, she already know and conversed with the people working the apartment and some neighbors. while i mostly just exchanged cursories and nods and glances. then one day we just walked out together and the same people i passed earlier just says hello and converse and stuff with my wife and me. yes she's very much an extrovert but i can see people are way 'more open' and my wife has that too. me on the other hand do have 'i don't want to bother you so please don't bother me' vibe.
I was at a conference recently and I went to a meetup session that the organizers put through and I was so anxious that I took a lapel pin and left immediately :( I knew about my social anxiety but never saw it first hand as such. I am so bad in networking with people.
I'm sorry you had that experience, I know that feeling and it sucks.
One thing I love about socials at conferences is that it's a self selecting group of people who want to talk to other people, otherwise they wouldn't be there. Even if people are shy and awkward they are in that room because they want to be social, even if they aren't able to start the conversation themselves. There's also usually a code of conduct for the conference so you have a better chance of people behaving in an acceptable way towards you, which makes the whole thing feel less risky. Over the last 10 years I've gotten much better at talking to people at these events and now quite enjoy them.
That being said I still find it really hard to walk up to a group of strangers and say hi, but in this setting it's way more socially acceptable, so I force myself to do it. I much prefer to be invited into conversation by another person, which does happen occasionally. But sometimes you have to be the one to start.
The only time I've found it go negatively is when you chat with a group of people who all work together, especially if they are remote, because they may be using the conference social to bond with their colleagues and not some random person. But that's their problem, and you should just watch for that scenario and move on to another group.
I had a colleague (now friend :D) whose dad was a manager for a company, he taught him to talk to anyone so he's got a number of conversation starters / makers. I mean I (think I) can tell it's a very active intellectual process for him, like it's not natural and he's analysing responses and storing them and the like constantly, but he's doing it and it makes him a great asset. I don't think he aspires any leadership positions - conversations cost him energy and he likes to write code, after all - but he has the techniques for it.
A tip from a past life working a customer service / food service job:
Learn a few words in a variety of languages. They are great conversation starters / expanders – I made a lot of actual friendships by talking to people (after taking their orders), asking them where they’re from, and then knowing a few words in their language. Nothing makes people happier than hearing someone speak their native language, no matter how poorly.
This was in a university town, so knowing a couple words in Chinese, Arabic, Hindi, etc. was useful.
Learning basic Levantine Arabic has brought me more smiles and free meals than I can count. It's been deeply healing in challenging the negative narratives surrounding these very warm people.
I have autism so talking with people can get difficult as we have different communication styles and message decoding systems.
Even when people seem nice I generally keep a distance as I have to analyse them slowly instead of relying on social cues. I do pick up cues but processing them is not subconscious. My subconscious is not as generative and acts more like a buffer for conversation, so all the talking I do subconsciously has to be placed there beforehand instead of generating it with subconscious heuristics.
joke or not (actually not) but read some women spaces and it's obviously a lot of people, especially women, just want to be let alone. Don't start talking with random people unless they start talking to you and it's consensual, simple as that.
Yeah but if everyone follows that then nobody ever talks to anyone “random” ever. The key is to just not be creepy. Some little low stakes thing that can just end easily if they don’t want to chat. “Such a long wait for this bus. Should have brought a book.” If you get a brief response, fine, end of conversation. Otherwise, then you can chat.
If you’re a man and go into it with the mindset of only talking to women, especially attractive ones, then of course that would get you labeled as a creep because it is creep behaviour. That’s not striking up a conversation with strangers, it’s hitting on women. You have to approach anyone equally. Address the attractive woman the same way you approach the old man on the bus stop.
Bullshit. That's internet incel horseshit. Have an actual conversation. Get to a point where your sole, entire intention isn't just to con a woman into sleeping with you, and where you like, maybe want to get to know her. Lose the weird, internet pick-up artist intensity.
Like, do random men you talk to think you're a creep? If they do, then maybe it's time to get some life coaching. If not, maybe, just maybe, there's some subtle differences in how you approach people you see as sex toys vs. people you see as, you know, people.
>Get to a point where your sole, entire intention isn't just to con a woman into sleeping with you, and where you like, maybe want to get to know her.
But the point of this exercise isn't to make a deep friendship. It's practice. Is this article inherently creepy?
>Like, do random men you talk to think you're a creep? If they do, then maybe it's time to get some life coaching.
If they do, they're a lot better at hiding it. The big difference is in threat level. I don't see men nor women approach me and think "are they trying to hurt me/hit on me" as a default.
> But the point of this exercise isn't to make a deep friendship. It's practice.
Personally, that wasn't my takeaway. I thought it was more that you and the other person would get some joy out of the interaction. As in, conversations with strangers will be fun, even if you don't end up being friends.
I find it interesting how this comment says we should be socialising with everyone equally, and another upvoted comment elsewhere here says to modify your appearance to be more approachable.
I'm very conscious of this, perhaps more so due to being a brown immigrant, which is why I prefer to chat with men or older people. There's much less ambiguity there.
If you look at the lyrics it is a bit straightforward for the 21st century, I think the best approach now is to compress it to only 4 words, "Hi, What's Your Name?".
Even that can be a bit much in the wrong situation, so it can be good to seek out the opposite type of situation :)
You might keep that on your mind but from there let things try to imply the rest of the lyrics, especially the part that goes "Can I Be Your Friend?"
> Don't start talking with random people unless they start talking to you
How would that work exactly? Someone needs to go first.
Don't bother people obviously and if they don't want to talk they don't want to talk, that should always be respected. It's just that the idea that "you should never talk to anyone" is massively fueling a loneliness epidemic.
As for interaction with men and women: Everyone seems to agree that dating apps suck and that people should just "go out and meet people". Good luck with that if you're not allowed to talk to anyone.
There's a number of people how are going to be creeps and disrespectful, but they also don't give a shit about your "don't talk to me rule", so now ALL your interactions are going be with creeps.
Talk to as many people as you can, but be respectful, learn to read who'd rather be left alone and stop if the person clearly doesn't want to talk to you.
> The disappearance of these kinds of interactions from day-to-day life – in pubs, restaurants, shops, queues, on public transport – is striking.
> We are losing a basic human skill. The ability to speak to others and understand them is being compromised.
I fail to see how these two ideas are connected. How is my ability to speak and listen to the people I care about—my parrnts, my friends, my spouse and kids—hindered by my unwillingness to talk to a complete stranger in a supermarket line? I don't hate or hold any ill feelings towards them, it's just that I'm more comfortable being to myself and I have only so much capacity to talk and too many people in the city I live in. I would understand if the article was focused on the reluctancy to bond with people in more or less stable groups (at work or at school) but I don't buy the "strangers" argument.
I don’t know about others but a big reason I went into software development (whether I want to admit it or not) is because I am “naturally” not very skilled in talking to, or dealing with , people.
While I’ve done very well in tech, the truth is, lacking this skill has only been a detriment.
The problem at this point is I truly don’t like random people, and I have no idea how to fix that. Often people are rude, inconsiderate, selfish, etc. the canonical example is being in a row at the grocery store, walking down the row, someone’s cart is just way out in the center blocking your path, and as you approach, they do nothing.
Anyways “people skills” are definitely a SKILL and one I’ve avoided to my detriment over the years. Need to work on that.
I think people also overlook opportunities to talk... at their peril.
I remember going to a motel (they actually had cabins) to reserve a place for relatives coming into town. The owner was a nice guy, and he ran the whole place himself.
I took the girlfriend with me, drove over and we walked over to talk to him. As I started the conversation, you could see he took pride in his place and he was a garrulous guy with sort of a twinkle in his eye.
"How much will this cost?!" the girlfriend blurted out.
All of a sudden the blossoming conversation ground to a halt, as he put his hand on the back of his neck and started thinking about what a cheap room would go for.
We talked about it later, sort of like "I think we were all starting to form a relationship at the start of the conversation, and we lost an opportunity"
I think all of us have these opportunities to form a relationship with lots of people we interact with every day, and we can allow it or deny it.
I am currently struggling with a deep rumination loop about events from 35 years ago; the trigger three weeks ago was completely accidental, but it was one of the biggest shocks I’ve had in decades. I can't help but think how different life would be if I had the communication skills then that I have now.
Growing up in a conservative, religious household outside the US, there was no support for slow processors, and those who didn't fit the dogma were simply told to 'shut up.' The more you were forced to shut up, the more you closed off. Since this was before the internet, self-help tools were non-existent. I really wish the coaching tools and protocols we have today had been available back then. It wouldn't have changed everything, but it would have given me the tools to manage many situations that I simply couldn't handle at the time.
And yes, I agree with the headline... talk to people, anyone, everyone. Maybe you’ll get help, or maybe you just go for it—because regardless of any embarrassment you face now, you may find yourself proud of that courage decades later.
I used to talk to strangers a lot when I was younger. But then I started getting older and more scary looking. I developed memories of older men making unwanted advances towards me. I became horribly afraid of making anyone else feel that way, so I stopped.
I know the article's advice is to take a chance, and if I scare someone else so be it. But something about that feels wrong to me.
Reaching middle age, as a guy I thought women were more open to friendliness. I have always assumed it was the shadow of a safe "friendly grandpa" effect. Older men have the opportunity to be seen as less intimidating (assuming you don't emit predator vibes).
Or perhaps alternately I've learnt over the years to be more genuinely friendly.
I've seen men and women attempting to start a friendly conversation and have it backfire - because others can tell if someone is needy. Sometimes people are desperate for a conversation, but they sadly frighten away everyone.
I've also really leant into starting conversations with other guys. The stereotype is a bunch of old men yacking about "boring" stuff, and you can totally just accept that and have fun talking about anything. It's only boring if you lack the wit to discern something interesting within a conversation.
There's also an art to looking approachable, so that others can initiate a conversation with you. I am not skilled at it, but I recognize it. Or alternatively recognizing when someone is open to having a conversation started.
I've had three long and very memorable conversations on internaltional plane flights in the past, with three extremely interesting and intelligent people. I don't tend to take those flights anymore, they were for work and the novelty of international travel for work wore off. Now I get out of it whenever I can.
But those three conversations have stayed with me.
Say what? Technology has been awesome, it pretty much eliminates the risk in social interactions. With Internet, you are not forced to be part of a community you have no interest in and who do not like you anyway because of your interests, but you can choose and pick your own community. And the same goes for dating apps, they help completely derisk the initial approach and as pointed out elsewhere in this thread, risk of being seen as a creep.
I usually dislike when people talk to me in public. Some people have nothing to say but they trap you in a conversation anyways. Some people are genuinely interesting and energizing to talk to. Either way, every conversation i've had in public has stuck with me and I can remember these conversations 6+ years later.
My personal philosophy has always been that “everyone has at least ONE good story to share.” Everyone. Best way to discover these gems is to talk with anyone as when the mood suits you. I’m a richer person for the stories that I’ve been honored to hear.
I feel that there is a down-spiral to this. People who talk to me usually want something from me so I started avoiding people since I have the expectation that they want something form me which means that I also think I look like a weirdo whenever I try to talk to somebody so I stop talking to people.
Visited Fiji and stayed in the "locals" area rather than in one of the tourist resorts. Everywhere I went, would get stopped by locals and asked how my day was going, where I was going, what I was up to.
Shamefully my tourist-shields were at maximum after experiences in Morocco/Ethiopia and similar, and many people I ignored and kept walking as fast as I could.
Eventually I found myself in a conversation I couldn't easily escape from and I realised... they're just being friendly. They were all just being friendly. I spoke to dozens afterwards and had nice little chats, with no motives, no scams, no sales, no brothers-uncle's shop that I must visit.
(I did get scammed in the taxi though, by someone who didn't make conversation :) )
One of my best stranger conversations talking to a “Big Issue” seller outside a supermarket. As I understand, they’re (close to) homeless usually [1].
When I asked about him, he mentioned he’s Irish but moved on to tell me about his plans. How he was saving to have a farm, planned what to grow, animals - 15m of quite precise description. His story was his future.
This was striking for me - when asked most people tell you about their past, where they’re coming from. It was the first time I realised that where we’re going should be a bigger part of our story and identity.
It's either my country or the parenting I got that makes me incapable of trusting a stranger. I don't know who I might be talking to, or who that person I talked to might talk to, and while it might be fine to talk to someone who you'll never see again, I'm really wary of my privacy and how people knowing what I do for a living (and by extension how much I make) might put me in harm's way.
I'm kind of a misnthrope. I don't know my neighbors and I don't want to. I bought my current house in part because it has a fence around it. I wear earbuds in the store so random people don't try to talk to me (I'm also tall so I get people asking me to get things down for them somewhat often). I teach college so I guess I get enough interaction with strangers from having new students every semester.
Yet you felt the need to write exactly that to no one but total strangers on the internet without getting anything immediately out of it other than other people reading it.
I’m wrapping up a 4 month stint at a fancy hotel working as a valet attendant. My job responsibilities as written were parking cars and helping with bags, but the unspoken expectation was that I also greet everyone who passed by my desk. These conversations are all low stakes but make such a difference in my day, and I think the article hits it on the head when they say it doesn’t have to be groundbreaking to be beneficial. The hard part is going to be continuing the habit when I’m not getting paid for it.
Sometimes I want to strike up a conversation but get no reaction or even a dismissive glance and get ignored. It feels like the universe has a script and I went off track.
I always start a convo with a question, " what is exciting in your life?" - it brings out good things out of people and positivity to the conversation that is following... It brings in perspective. My past leader once said, "understand the people first before you start to work with them"... it is what I believe is missing.. trying to learn about people around us and sometimes taking a chance and strike a conversation with a stranger.. we will learn a great deal even from a small talk..
>I always start a convo with a question, " what is exciting in your life?"
Sadly, nothing. Stuck on 2 part time jobs, I see more layoffs than job posts, I'm about to be soft evicted from my current dwelling, and my country decided to start yet another needless war.
That question works in good times in a high trust society. Now it just reminds you how little there is to look forward to.
I can't imagine it would, at least not without some (a lot of) social lube. Even bars might prove hard, since a lot of people there will be the regulars and other fixed groups who probably aren't interested in making friends. If you could join the smokers for a fag that might work out, but that doesn't happen any more since you can't smoke outside public establishments (which is fair, but it does remove a potential social arena).
It's reasonably possible at events. Cars and Coffee works great, since everybody wants to talk about their car. I doubt it will work at the dentist, since nobody really wants to be there in the first place. Maybe if they're wearing a shirt or something you can compliment or ask about and then can use that as a springboard?
If you're the dictionary definition of an extrovert you can probably still make it work, but you'll really stand out, and you'll be rejected a lot.
I am anonymously writing this because it is a strange outcome of talking to someone by making an effort to do so. I never intended anything when I made an effort to speak with a girl , but to my surprise it ended up with an offer to meet and an invitation for more !! I never thought it would happen to me because I am neither good looking or handsome kinds.
As someone who identifies with the text, a very introverted guy that almost never starts a conversation but it's able to maintain it once they other person starts it, and as someone who has never dated any girl (and failed to do so) I'll just say: almost every random person that talks with me...is a man.
It doesn't seems...fair...and, again, says a lot about society.
That women feel pressured to be introverted and/or man feel pressured to be extroverted. Being the opposite is a handicap.
Although, the good part, is that the personality doesn't seems to be genetic and doesn't come from your parents either, otherwise we would be extinct (literally).
Unfortunately, this situation makes me think about genre issues in an different way, not only sort of understanding why they happen, but surprised that it's not more common. I've met very horrid persons, that have achieve what I haven't, just because women doesn't seem to try to see past them. Is like they gave up...
random people wont really talk to you because they have no way to evaluate who you are. it is nothing about you, but a reflection on society. the stranger is now a danger to women. this is what they taught in school too, and internet show them that all stranger use aggressive mean pick up artist tactics~
before 1990s there was very little international travel, small town everyone know each other, speak english. very little drugs and tattoos etc. stranger on the street most likely grew up less than a few hundred miles away. very little gun violence between strangers. most importantly no stupid pick up artist culture.
most blue collar people were only friends with blue collar people (not even drink wine), rich people only hang out with rich people (beer is for the plebs, only wine for us), and class was obvious by your clothes. they judge whether to talk to you by haircut , makeup., etc. remember this time many people dont even know what an ivy league school is. no internet.
now we have open society without judgement or visible hierarchies, it is not possible for a stranger to judge you so they they will totally avoid you. now you must install apps. these are merely a computer algorithm for women to judge men (salary, height, SATs, postcode, wealth) and filter
the best way is to join local community groups and form friendships over time. but now even these are being used aggressively to findd women, like running clubs and climbing clubs, so people will be very apprehensive of you. you must choose an interest which you genuinely enjoy but requires enough specific effort it doesnt end up full of normoids.
I've joined local groups for anime and videogames, but they are mostly anime. Videogames and programming seems to be almost exclusively masculine (the stereotypes are there for a reason) but the few girls there doesn't seem much different.
Maybe I've had bad luck, maybe I need to search more, but still...the situation seems to be similar everywhere.
try group that are tied to your geography rather than international subculture
eg videogaming subculture was good during 00s LAN era because it was local. you would be seeing people from your town and surrounds. now gaming is just online random anons
I found New England particularly difficult in this regard. Even my neighbors don't want to talk. But, I love this thread. It is so fun to bump into a person and share life for a few minutes. For me, if I'm busy and stressed I don't do this so a lot of it is about my own headspace.
Most important line in this article. People will always find an excuse (and i'm including myself in this at times) but that is all it is, an excuse. Talking to people is what makes us human and its innate. You might not be the best conversationalist or whatever but you can still talk to people, no need to put any pressure on it.
Something I learned from being around a few outgoing friends over the years, the easiest way to start a conversation is to ask questions. Even if you already know the answer, it breaks the ice and let's them do the talking. Don't know what to say next? Ask another question.
I've done some Uber driving. Chatting in a car is great because there's no awkwardness of whether to look at one another. I've met some really interesting people, from all backgrounds. I can recommend it if you have time to spare and want to chat with people.
Not everyone wants to talk but you can pick up on that pretty quickly.
When I first my met father-in-law in my college days, we ended up going to the store to get my wife (then GF) some random supplies. I struck up a conversation with a stranger and my FIL asked his daughter, “Does he know that guy?” She laughed and replied, “Probably not.”
I don't know if anyone follows Jefferson Fisher on ig but his content on how to communicate has always resonated with me as someone who struggles with meeting new people. It's been especially helpful since I've recently moved to a new city.
If anyone doesn't know where to start - start in places you're stuck next to people. Like in line to check out at the grocery store. I have struck up dozens of conversations looking at the belt and guessing what they're making for dinner. People who like to cook love to talk about cooking.
I hate these sort of things. Like everyone is just sitting there hoping, hoping for someone to strike up a conversation with them. Oh thank god someone has started a conversation with me! /sarcasm
Respect people's boundaries please. Don't force yourself on people unless they're obviously willing participants.
People put extroversion/introversion as like this binary, permanent thing that cannot be changed. In reality I think it is a spectrum that changes throughout the day and the situation. Someone might be introverted at 8am on their commute, but a wild extrovert at 9pm in the bar. Don't assume, don't try to "help" people you know nothing about.
What's being "forced"? And what boundaries aren't being respected? If someone attempts to strike up a conversation and you're not interested, you can signal that. Or just be direct and say you don't feel like talking. Sure, that can be uncomfortable, but you can't expect humanity as a whole to repress its social nature just to spare you occasional, fleeting moments of mild discomfort. (And despite the wide spectrum of social inclinations -- I'm definitely on the introverted end -- I think it's accurate to say that humans, as a species, crave social interaction.)
In your ideal world, how would someone even signal they are a "willing participant" without talking to someone?
Because it is this "talk to anyone" thing, like if they say no you just need to keep trying because really deep down they just don't know how nice you're being by giving them a chance to talk to you.
It's supreme arrogance. Read the body language and just leave people alone.
If someone is up for talking they'll show the obvious signs - facing you, eye contact, smiling, that sort of waiting-for-something look/expression. I've had e-fucking-nough of people thinking they can "fix" me when I am trying to get some time to myself waiting for a train or whatever after a stressful day at work or being woken up endlessly by kids/neighbours/whatever.
Otherwise it should be "talk to anyone who is obviously open to and willing to have a conversation with you", at which point it's a total tautology anyway and you don't need a guide, it's just natural chat that you don't need to force on someone to make it happen.
> keep trying because really deep down they just don't know how nice you're being by giving them a chance to talk to you.
I don't fathom what kind of trauma would lead you to take this positive, light-hearted advice to connect to fellow human beings, and to spin this into such a vile, evil, anti-social narrative.
This advice has the potential soothe political rift. I rarely see anymore two people on opposite sides having a calm discussion of facts such as Krystal and Saagar often do. We need more of that. Dehumanizing the other side has costs.
It still is.
I gave up for 15 years, and just the last two years i have been smoking. In these last two years, I've met a lot of people in my company out in the smoker's den, and quite a few of them are really interesting people.
I no longer smoke as a habit, but when I have to travel solo (like for work) I sometimes will buy a pack just so I have an excuse to strike up a conversation with other humans without being called a creep or weirdo. "Hey, you got a light? What brand you smoking? How are you liking the conference so far?"
Here's my life hack:
Caffeine makes my verbal fluency suck so I enter a self-reinforcing cycle of not wanting to talk to people.
Nicotine makes my verbal fluency not suck so I naturally want to talk to people.
Because of this I do nicotine. Is this healthy? Probably not.
I would imagine a common goal could alleviate the resistancy? Talking while jogging or doing shoot-out at a basketball court sounds like a good way to fill in that small gap in between actions.
I talk to everyone and anyone; it's really great actually. Been doing that all over the world for most of my life (50+). Most people enjoy it; many are lonely and I often end up at parties / dinners etc at complete strangers.
I think it's mostly the denormalisation of this. Indeed someone just randomly striking a conversation with a stranger will come across as a psycho or a creep. No one wants to be perceived that way.
That’s what I loved about NYC, people were generally open-minded and easy to talk to, so I’d chat with tons of people spontaneously. Having moved back to France now, it generally feels harder and weirder, but I got used to it.
Man, talking to strangers in random places just feels socially uncalibrated to me, like I'm being retarded. The first time I across that idea was in the form of "cold approach", the idea of trying to score a date from a woman you see while out and about.
I wonder if anyone who did this had to start from a baseline of feeling this is straight up weird (I'm pretty sure it is weird in my culture).
Cold approaches worked better before social media and smartphones . now your awkward encounters can live forever online and cause humiliation for years to come , or some stranger looking for clout may step in. This is has become so common now , because everyone wants to be a hero.
I fail at the first hurdle. A small innocuous comment is often met with a "huh?" as if I had said it in Japanese or mentioned how nice the wallpaper tastes. It's like they clock the (relatively mild) autism immediately. Then I just feel super self conscious and lock up
I hate it when strangers try to talk to me in public (e.g., on public transportation, at work). I absolutely do not care what you have to say, what you do, how your day went, how many pets you have, what your hobbies are, or where you spent your holidays, and at the same time, in no way do I want to share any details about my life, not out of privacy or anxiety of speaking but out of sheer annoyance and indifference. However, most of the time I do not want to insult the person that tries to talk to me in any way, so I just stay silent and try to endure this torturous assault until I find a suitable moment to get away.
People should try to sense when someone wants to get left alone and leave them alone. I don't know how much you communicate that and misunderstandings do happen. Anyway regardless of whether someone just doesn't get that you don't feel like talking or whether they do not care, when just giving short direct answers to questions that only maintain the minimum level of friendliness does not work to get someone to stop talking to you you are doing both of you a favor by directly, but politely telling them that you do not feel like talking right now.
It is hard as fuck for me. But every time it happened (either me or other person starting) turned out a great memory on itself, or lead to great experiences right after. Still, I do it less often that I would like
There's some solid advice in here - especially around performative interactions vs genuine.
I was someone who was raised home schooled and it really altered my ability to communicate with my peers, which was something I had to really work on later in life. It surprises most people who know me when I tell them this, as I'm a pretty outgoing / gregarious person these days. It was a deliberate choice on my part, and I likely overindexed on it, leading to me now being highly social.
For those looking to do the same, I'll offer my own advice: how you engage socially depends on how large the audience is.
Small audiences (1-2 people):
If you don't know them: your goal should be to get them to smile without feeling threatened. A lot of people fail at that last part. Don't give someone a compliment like, "I like your pants" out of the blue - it may threaten them that you have alterior motives ("Are they attracted to me?", "Do they just like how my butt looks in these pants?"). Reframe compliments in a way that isn't threatening - ask them something instead like, "Hey weird question, but can I ask what brand those pants are? I want to get my sibling a birthday present and I think they'd really like those". It shows you see them as positive without it being a threatening interaction.
If you do know them: your goal should be to be interested in what they are saying. Find the topic that will stimulate your mind / get you excited to hear them talk more about it. Don't just gamify it and try to get them to talk more than you talk; that's an easy way to make yourself not look genuine. Dig and find gold - everyone has somethinig cool to say, it's your job to find that.
Medium audiences (3-8 people):
Be the facilitator. Don't butt in to get your own voice heard, butt in to segue to others who haven't had their voice heard. "Omg thats crazy X, hey Y you recently had something similar happen right?". Keep the flow going. Your goal should be to make everyone else feel like they've found gold in the conversation with new and interesting nuggest on a regular basis.
Large audiences (9-30 people):
These are basically meetings, and are the worst possible social interaction. Your goal should be to make these as smooth as possible and end them quickly so you can break to smaller sizes. Present facts clearly without emotion, keep things on topic so you can move past them.
Presentations (30+ people):
With this size you do the reverse of the prior size - the facts don't matter at all. Your goal should be to present emotions, not facts. Don't tell people what the % YoY growth is. Control how they should feel about the % YoY growth. This is the biggest #1 failure I see from inexperienced presenters - they aim to just present the info. People can read the info later - convey to them the emotion they should take away from the data. On every slide you have you should have a goal emotion, and you should reflect that emotion in your presentation. Look at any great presenter and you'll notice the same - they have the audience's emotions in their hands.
Interesting, because I've been thinking about group sizes and their effects on social dynamics.
However, I guess it depends on the goal? Like in medium audiences, WHY be the facilitator for others? I mean it's a good thing to do if there's such a person or maybe if you're the host, etc. But in my opinion in most cases the point is to contribute to the conversation.
For large/presentations- fact versus emotion thing seems arbitrary. In most "social" situations emotions triumph regardless of size. But again there are factors other than size that would factor more into this. I don't disagree with anything- more like all of it could go either way and it's fine.
I read in a couple of comments that you are worried about "bothering people". To be honest, don't worry about it, you can attribute sufficient life skills to others to simply tell you (verbally or non-verbally) in case they feel bothered.
I'm at Paris Baguette, a Korean lower-end coffee shop chain common in the Bay Area. The guy next to me has headphones on and his laptop on a stand. Or it's four middle-aged Latino women celebrating a birthday. Or it's a bunch of local high-school kids.
Do I lean over and say, "Hi, how are you guys doing? Really good coffee they have here, huh?"
I'm at the gym. It's a big-box gym. It's full of dudes wearing Airpods Max, a few couples in skintight athletic outfits, a few teens with phones on tripods filming themselves for Tiktok.
Do I come over, gesture for them to take off their headphones, and say, "Hi, how are you guys doing? That's really good form, on that lift, really good form. Keep it up!"
I'm waiting to cross a road. On the other side of the road is a Caltrain crossing. The traffic light cycle takes forever, and then the train comes and preempts it. And then preempts it again when people finish getting on. A crowd of parents with strollers are waiting to cross. People are returning from the farmer's market with bags of vegetables. People on bikes.
Do I lean over and say, "Hey, how are you guys all doing? It sure takes a while to cross. Wow!"
I recommend the book "The Fine Art of Small Talk".
TLDR: Small talk seems to be of trivial importance and to require minimal effort. Neither of this is true. Therefore, there is no shame in cultivating one's smalltalk muscle and being more prepared for it
In a world full of shallow people and AI here and there, people cannot hold deep talks anymore.
You can still talk with anyone but going out specifically to talk with anyone???
Yeah, that ain't happening.
It gives me anxiety lmao you will have better time with hobbies.
>I guess my tangent meant to point at the need for both general, or specialized, "social hubs", where regularly appearing people silently agree to, eventually, getting talked to.
Those are called "3rd places". Those have sadly been on the decline for the past 30 years.
It's easy to point to phones as the problem, but few can point to proper solutions. Because they don't exist in the same way the previous generations had it.
Why does the majority of people just assume people want to communicate... I have not read the article and never am going to. This headline premise alone of doing that will destroy any sanity I have. I do not, ever, want to talk you as a standard and you should never force that to me.
You should really read the article rather than judging it based on the title. The author establishes several reasons you might want to speak to others and highlights cultural phenomena where people seem to be yearning for more connection with strangers.
If after reading it you decide it’s not for you then that’s fine, it is as they say bean soup.
> Why does the majority of people just assume people want to communicate
They don’t. If they did they wouldn’t have an issue striking up a conversation with strangers, but they clearly do.
> I have not read the article and never am going to.
If you don’t know what it says, it might be wise to not be negative about it.
> I do not, ever, want to talk you as a standard and you should never force that to me.
The article isn’t suggesting anyone force anything. Quite the contrary, it advocates for respecting boundaries and even suggests how to communicate your own.
The other day I saw a guy on the train looking at pictures he was actively receiving of a topless woman. He was clearly enjoying it, in his own little world, so I leaned over and said “don’t get scammed buddy”.
His anger brewed for a few minutes and he decided he wanted to fight me, so he menacingly stood up. I remained seated and told him to sit down. He ended up grabbing me by the throat, while no-one around did a thing to stop him.
It’s made me think twice about interacting with random people, tits or no tits. But I doubt I’ll learn anything from it and continue with reckless abandon, because life is mundane otherwise.
Losing your temper when a serious boundary has been crossed is natural and expected. It had a positive outcome in that it stopped your bad behaviour immediately.
> He ended up grabbing me by the throat, while no-one around did a thing to stop him.
The bystander effect is real, but you should also take this opportunity for self-reflection, because in this case, you were the person behaving badly who instigated the situation.
Serious boundary? He put tits in front of my eyes. Am I supposed to remember to keep my eyes pinned to the floor when out in public? What a terrible way you must live.
I’m afraid to say, that if you want a boundary, go home. Otherwise, accept that you’re in public, and people can and will speak to you.
Also, you’ve just justified being violent in response to someone making sounds with their mouth. I bet you’re a calm person to be around, when everyone does what you want.
You’ve suggested they live in a bubble, yet your comments suggest that you expect no-one to “invade” your blissful little privacy bubble, and believe it’s okay to strike out and be physically violent to others if they do.
> Go out into the world and behave like the GP. Your apparent mental model of society will collapse quickly.
The problem you’ve got is that I will win. If you permit escalating mouth words to physical violence, I’ll have stabbed you in the face for your mouth words before you’ve gotten very far. Subduing your propensity for physical escalation is in your favour.
This is quite entertaining and I'm glad there are people like you, but you didn't even think it would be inappropriate to comment on a naked picture that someone receives in a private conversation? I don't even think you were supposed to look at his phone.
Yeah, you see, I don’t think you’ve quite understood the art of talking to anyone. It doesn’t happen by staring at the floor and minding your own business. Quite the opposite, mostly.
Despite illusions and every misguided attempt, when in public, you’re not actually in an impenetrable little bubble. And when your bubble bursts, you can laugh, or get angry. I recommend choosing laughter because it’s easier on the eyes.
> Yeah, you see, I don’t think you’ve quite understood the art of talking to anyone
Have you? You're dripping with condescension for everyone who's replied to you so far, in addition to the guy in your anecdote. You've asked one person to "fuck off" when they were polite. Do you think closewith or pingou have enjoyed their interaction with you?
Or is your art of talking to people just meant to amuse you and ignore the feelings of others?
By the way, there is a social convention that we refrain from commenting on what's on people's phones even though we can see it. It's considered an invasion of privacy if we do.
> You've asked one person to "fuck off" when they were polite.
Someone doesn't understand an example when they see one.
> You're dripping with condescension for everyone who's replied to you so far,
Yes
> Or is your art of talking to people just meant to amuse you and ignore the feelings of others?
Every one of you has failed to see what's wrong with expecting people to act the way _you_ want when in public, and been compelled to tell me how _you_ think I should act to make _you_ happy. I can act the way I want, just like the gorilla on the train can act how he wants, and hark: this is the world. One can laugh at it, or one can get angry. I am laughing. You are, what? Being moved by symbols appearing on a screen, which evoked emotions attached to your lack of control over the way _I_ behave, which makes you feel afraid because I could "invade your privacy" -- what does that even mean? Like seriously, what does that matter what my eyes see? Why am I responsible for averting my eyes from shit you're presenting in public? Why should I not pass comment? Did I hurt your feelings? Because you forgot you're in public and didn't keep your shit private enough? Or did you hurt your own feelings through your own unrealistic expectations and your own failure to keep private what you just bandied around in public?
Because I can explain why you shouldn't turn into an ape and physically attack someone. Because physical violence leads to injuries which cannot be undone.
I am so sorry that I saw your phone in public, and that your feelings were so hurt by what my eyes saw - as a failure to stare firmly at the ground. And I'm sorry that my mouth vibrated some air particles that tickled your eardrum in a way that revealed a truth that made you feel uncomfortable. Beat me, I deserve everything you have for me.
What a troubled world you're trying to enforce.
> By the way, there is a social convention that we refrain from commenting on what's on people's phones even though we can see it.
There's a social convention that you don't go around displaying tits on screens that other people might see. So what? Did I turn into an ape and start fighting him? No.
>It's considered an invasion of privacy if we do.
"Invasion"? I barely moved a muscle. On this basis, his pornography invaded my consciousness. Did I turn into an ape and start fighting him? No.
Forgive me for speaking to all of you, for a brief moment, from a place of condescension, but y'all have a fragile expectation of privacy in public, if y'all are gonna turn into gorillas the moment you become aware of your own failure to conceal what you wish you kept private. Privacy is not in harmony with the properties of the physical world when in close proximity to other human beings - and it's not anyone's job to turn their eyes off, or keep their mouth shut, for your pleasure, just as the sky has no job ensuring the weather is in keeping with your desires. You can either fight or allow the world around you. I'm suggesting to you, that you allow it. The world rains on me all the time, and I play with every drop. If you're fighting, you're choosing to fight, and it's not a good look. If you're being "invaded", you're choosing to have something to defend.
I'm declining your invitation to close my eyes, and I'm letting you know my door is open, so come on in, but please, if you wouldn't mind - take your shoes off.
You've written a lot of words to avoid saying a simple thing - you wanted to mess with someone to entertain yourself and it backfired. That's the whole story. The philosophy is window dressing.
> Yeah, you see, I don’t think you’ve quite understood the art of talking to anyone.
Well, mastering the art of talking to anyone involves being able to initiate a conversation with people of many cultures, in many mental states, in many circumstances.
A master of talking to anyone won't begin with a condescending and invasive comment, as they will recognise that beginning a conversation disrespectfully is unlikely to be received warmly.
I would say mastering the art of talking to anyone includes having a good mental model of what the other person thinks or how they would react.
It can be delightful to be surprised, but if you are surprised all the time then I would say something may be wrong in the way you see the world.
Nowhere did I say that people should mind their own business at all time. You cannot imagine a situation where you shouldn't talk to a person? You feel entitled to look at their phone? Is there no social boundary you respect? You are free to not respect them, but you can't hardly be surprised to experience pushback.
Again, I like that people like you exist, I hope I don't come as too aggressive.
I was not interested in his phone until my eyes were drawn to the image of some great big jubbly boobies staring back at me.
I’m sure you’ve encountered the phenomenon of noticing something unusual within your line of sight.
If you’re going to engage with such content in public with such disregard that others’ gaze may be drawn to it, then you deserve to receive whatever wisdom or drivel may spill from those onlookers lips.
And you’re right, there is nothing stopping anyone from talking to me. I accept their intrusion into my space as a peril of being in public. If you climb through my window to speak to me, that is a different matter.
I don't know. The idea is old and looks solid but the more I think about it the more I don't buy it; people have less good friends. Many people are estranged from family. Many people barely say hello to their neighbors. Maybe we should expend our limited energy on the people we do know instead of strangers waiting for the bus.
For me starting something with a complete stranger is draining; I need to overcome a psychological barrier (that's probably there for a good reason); so the risk is there. The reward ? I'm not sure. Some interactions could be fun, many could be boring and draining. Sure I could get better at this skill of talking to strangers with lots of struggle but the end game isn't really clear, it's not gonna flip my personality into a charismatic stranger lover. I could use the time to quietly stare at space or call my mom instead.
I think you're missing the part where interacting with strangers is also working the general socialization muscle. If you find yourself being more social in general, and give yourself the time to recharge, then you'll be better equipped to engage with those closest to you. You may even get lucky and add someone else to that circle
Yeah that's actualy part of my issue with this - socializing isn't super easy for me. It takes energy. Instead of "practicing" this muscle, I can simply use this skill on the people I'm supposed to use it on anyway - family, colleagues, friends etc. Instead of trying to get the person next to me waiting for the bus to talk to me I can call my best friend who I hadn't talked to in a month or more.
I see no point in practicing with complete strangers. But you know what, I'm 41, about to turn 42, perhaps my priorities aren't the same as young people still building their personalities. There could be real value in being less shy and not fearing rejection so much; however I would say - find a good venue. I don't think New York subway is the bests place to start practicing this...
After a bad breakup in 2015, I followed some advice from the socialskills subreddit to “talk to everyone” so that you get better at talking to women you might want to date. The advice was not to only talk to attractive people but everyone. The old man reading a Russian newspaper, the kid on bike doing tricks, people in the elevator.
I do that now and it brings me a lot of joy. Recently while leaving a botanical garden I spoke to a man who was excitedly looking for a few specific plants. He is a botanist (amateur? professional? unclear) and I enjoyed sharing in his passion for a moment. Then I saw a maintenance guy moving with great intention who took a moment to ask me and my family if we had a nice time. We did, and I asked him about the papers in his hand. “Gotta get approval for this purchase request asap.” He said. We talked a bit about how nice it is to work at such a beautiful place.
I highly recommend talking to strangers! People are lovely. Go out and try it.
The "Helping You Not Become Your Parents" commercials (from some insurance company I think) make me sad.
They're basically making fun of people for trying to connect.
I'm in a spot where I don't really bump into strangers much but, as a recovering introvert I've tried to talk to people like this and it feels AMAZING.
Like... irrational levels of amazing vibes.
It's so frustrating seeing my own kids be horrified by it and be hyper-introverted and disdainful of connecting with strangers.
Lessons you learn the hard way -- then fail to pass onto the next generation -- hurt.
> They're basically making fun of people for trying to connect.
I had the same thought. The clueless people turning into their parents are charming and genuine. The life coach guy is kind of a dick.
Reminds me of Apple's "I'm a PC, And I'm a Mac" ads from Apple. I always understood the point they were trying to make, but the PC character was so much more likable than the Mac.
The Mac guy was such a try-hard. "I'm cool and kind of edgy over here and you're just a dope for being sincere."
Talking to strangers is actually kind of nice as an introvert, there is very low pressure as you have no obligation to the person and you can end the conversation at any time.
I find it much nicer than talking to friends of friends or the absolute worst for me... the boyfriends of my girlfriends friends. You are getting shoved together into a forced interaction that you know will be asked about in the near future.
This is why I love IT conferences. I can chat up random strangers about topics that we're clearly both interested in. The vendors also send the most extroverted folks who are skilled in engaging introverted nerds. It's a great way for introverts to level up their social skills.
And the best part is that I never talk to those folks again ;) I found out that I actually really like making fast friends, I just hate the obligation of long-term close-knit friendships.
I end up with a lot of business cards and LinkedIn connections that usually never go anywhere. Which is fine with me!
But I got some good consulting gigs from the ones that did go somewhere.
Probably at least once a week, you're going to see someone drop something, press the wrong button on the elevator, try to push on the pull door etc. My own stress always peeks when I'm in public and trip up on something minor like that. If you just shout "hey you need help?" you're probably not going to make them feel any better and doubly worse if you just avoid eye contact and walk around them. When that happens to me, it can reaaaally sour a morning.
But saying "they really need to make these doors automatic, I dropped my coffee here last week!" and helping out if they want it has the EXACT opposite effect. Suddenly, it's not embarrassing any more, and you might have a little convo commiserating about what sucks. It's just a little bit of connection to make someone's day a bit better which is definitely a win-win and good way of breaking the seal on talking to folks.
> If you just shout "hey you need help?" ...
There's also another more neutral option. Just give them the answer they need without the fluff. If they then want to thank you and chat it's their choice, but completely optional.
This is probably not the right approach most of the time, but it works well on the types of people who seem "serious" (not anxious or upset).
This is a really hard one to pull off. You have to determine that they really are that type of person and then just magically know what they want. It's really satisfying when it works though.
I've met some of the most interesting people I've ever known that way.
Maybe it's age related, but if any of the scenarios you wrote happened to me, I would not be embarrassed receiving someone's assistance.
Coming up with the right phrase in the moment sounds risky. Is there another phrase you can use to offer help ?
Build your own repertoire of expressions by picking what you like. You could even use AI to make lists of such phrases if nothing comes to mind. Take the ones you like and use whatever suits you. At some point it'll become automatic.
> I highly recommend talking to strangers! People are lovely. Go out and try it.
Which country are you in?
I'm from a latin country and the norm is that you end up chatting about life the universe and everything with any random people you share a space with for more than one minute.
But in the USA that doesn't really fly. Talking is transactional, either a business deal is going on or shut up. I've been in the USA for a long time and as an introverted person I'm mostly ok with that, but whenever I'm back home I realize how much I miss talking to random people.
A lot of seemingly casual interactions in the US turn out to be someone trying to sell something. When that happens a 3rd time, you start to ignore random chatter from someone that seems too friendly. The salesperson tactics abuse common social conversation rules, and one ends up feeling like they are being forced to be mean and rude to an idiot. So, to avoid that, we push away chatty strangers in the United States.
It’s funny, my experience is the exact opposite.
Having grown up in Germany i was surprised how many people in the US would strike up a conversation randomly in the street with me - I thought it’s a normal thing and never really experienced it in Germany - there I would always be suspicious that people try to scam me or get money or something.
I do agree with GP that in Latin America it’s super common and normal to chat with everyone.
But there are many levels to this - it’s for example less common in Nordic countries at least in my experience but you can speak to people in every place on earth, it’s something universal.
I live in a Nordic country. The rule here is to avoid social contact at any cost. People waiting for a bus must stand at least 2 meters away from each other. Otherwise you might be close enough for someone less equipped in the local etiquette to mistake you for someone that may engage in small talk. When sitting , never sit directly next to someone else. Stand if that’s not possible and try to observe the 2 meter rule. Neighbors learn each other time routines to make sure they never have the uncomfortable experience of having to cross paths and acknowledge the others presence.
Regions in the US dominated by Nordic immigrants have similar patterns!
Reminds me of
https://youtu.be/oiSzwoJr4-0?t=9m34s
I'm on my fifth decade living in the nordics. Strangers have conversations at bus stops and neighbours socialize by the garbage bins and across the hedges all the time.
Not as much as in some other places in the world, but it is not at all rare.
Maybe in other regions, I am in Stockholm and would be shocked by an approaching neighbour trying to talk to me, unless it was to complain about my trees or something.
On the bus/train, even when it breaks down and we have to wait nearly an hour for it to start moving again, I've seen carriages full of people not speaking a word to each other (except people now think it's ok to speak on their phones, to my great annoyance).
It depends strongly on the city, and became more pronounced since covid.
Seattle is the worst. They call it the "seattle freeze." The San Francisco Bay Area became almost as bad in covid.
The south is still friendly. Austin is incredibly friendly with strangers. Miami has strong stranger vibe. NYC is still alive, too.
It may also depend on where you're from. I'm British, have travelled around the US, and never had problem engaging in chit chat with all sorts of people, big cities or not. But there's a strong disarming undercurrent of "oh wow, you're from England" through the whole experience that I expect most Americans never experience, at least within their own country.
Tourist areas of large cities are like this. LinkedIn connections are like this. Other than that, people are delighted when you speak to them for the most part.
If nothing else, the nerves and flashbulb memories overwrite old nerves and flashbulb memories.
That or someone running some sort of scam or asking for money. All on the same continuum I guess. I'm always on my guard when a talkative stranger approaches me. Which is sad in a way, but experience proves it's necessary.
You may be shaping the samples you collect in a priors confirming manner.
I'm in my 42nd year of life and I've never been small talked into giving someone money. I have been accosted by pan handlers who are directly asking for money. But never under the guise of a conversation. Ok, I take it back, once in 2011.
Depends on the MLM penetration in your community, some (Amway being a big one) recruits strangers in public.
I would not say that this happens "a lot". This is the sort of thing that one tells themselves to justify their own introversion.
Change "sales tactics" to "pickup attempt" and I think you'll find it a lot harder to dismiss it as a reason - not because it's true, but because of how much of a headache it is to get on the bad side of people who insist it's true. I'm gay (and active), but don't really present as such, and it's remarkable how often I receive, "I wish this creep would stop hitting on me/generally being an unattached male in my presence," vibes. I didn't want to believe it myself, until I noticed the markedly reduced occurrence when speaking to women who were visibly much older than I am. For women my age and younger: I'm not interested, but they think I'm interested, and that is a convo killer.
On the guy side, they usually seem too preoccupied to talk, or are moving with friends/family where interjecting as a stranger would be weird (because you either need to address the group or else you seem like you're attempting to break them off into a conversation away from that group). Though I'll give that the "too preoccupied" is sometimes merely an affect hiding, "This loser has nothing to offer me."
Does "almost 100% of the time" count as a lot? So far almost all chatty strangers I met have been either crazy or Amway cultists.
It's kind of crazy when someone has an outlier experience and then tries to frame an entire country as being that way.
I've experienced a lot of cultures, countries, and environments. The United States is KNOWN for being a friendly country of people who will talk to you and smile at you for "no reason" other than because Americans are friendly.
Go to many countries in Europe or even Russia, you'll experience the exact oppositive. If you smile at people or talk to a stranger, you will essentially be treated as if something is wrong with you.
Everyone knows this is true about the US. Your comment is clearly trying to portray the United States in a negative light with something that is entirely not true.
And then there's my experience: someone who has lived in the US for over 30+ years.
Frame however you need. Born and raised in the USA, lived all over the country, but never the true South. Of course, everywhere is different, and everywhere has friendly and unfriendly people. I've primarily lived in cities with a population greater than 100K, usually several million. I think my statement above stands.
Your statement doesn't though. Opinions don't become rooted in fact when we declare them so. No hard feelings, but your claim is akin to someone claiming that they stay away from Germans to avoid their extroverted nature.
When I visited New York City (and the US) for the first time in like 2010 I was taken a back but how much Americans like to chat randomly so this is strange to read.
I remember a random guy was chatting to me in the subway, then I got out, waiting at a crosswalk for the green, in those 15 seconds another guy starts another random conversation. In the first 2 hours of the trip I already had maybe 10 random circumstantial conversations. The whole trip I felt like if I wanted I could always be talking!
Yep. I lived long enough in the UK to thoroughly absorb their social dynamic, and the chattiness of strangers was my biggest culture shock moving back to the US. (West Coast USA, for those of you who think people here rate high on the "actually reserved" social scale.) I've been back long enough (+decade) to feel comfortable again with this level of random social interaction, but my wife, who's from the US South - twenty years on the West Coast, now - still feels like folks here are socially "cold".
Everyone here should note that The Guardian (I'm old enough to remember when it was The Manchester Guardian) is a UK newspaper, and adjust your understanding of its advice, or its necessity, accordingly.
This was my experience too. The USA is the only country I've ever been to where random strangers will strike up a conversation with me completely out of the blue, and I've travelled quite a lot.
For people whose cultures value reserve and privacy, visiting the U.S. is a study in cross-cultural dynamics and sometimes a serious test of social boundaries. Your comment reflects that. The loudness, friendliness, warmth, and (occasional) casual intrusiveness is both a reality and a stereotype. It always reminds me of this hilarious Harry & Paul (UK) sketch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGc3zFOFI-s
It's both regional and depends on how you are perceived.
I'm an introvert and I'm always surprised when a stranger talks to me, no matter where I am. But I make a point of always being pleasant back, no matter how I feel about it at the moment.
Sometimes it's just a couple sentences, and sometimes it's more of a conversation. It'd probably be more if I was better at conversations.
The only exception is if I feel the other person wants something from me, or they seem crazy or dangerous. I don't engage with those types.
NYC is very different in that regard from most anywhere else in the US. Random people tend to talk to each other. There’s a vague sense of “we’re all in this shit together”. Maybe it’s something to do with living on a cramped island, with no choice but to work together.
> But in the USA that doesn't really fly. Talking is transactional, either a business deal is going on or shut up.
This is regional within the US and obviously differs by person even then. Just remember that the people you are talking to may be the kind of people that need articles like the above to teach them how to talk to people. Their defenses go up when someone approaches them and while they are well practiced at appearing relaxed, they are not. Conversations are short because its emotionally difficult to stay in a heightened awareness state while someone is trying to pull you out of it. But you can certainly provide offramps
I think it depends on the part of the US. In my experience, being from the south, I am used to people engaging in small talk with strangers. However, working in the northeast I find people to be very transactional until you wear them down over an extended period of time haha.
In some cultures, you signal respecting someone's time by not bothering them.
In other cultures, you signal respecting someone's time by making small-talk with them.
Advice about making small talk vs. not making small talk is not really useful unless it acknowledges this cultural divide and the percentage chance a stranger falls into one culture or another.
This was also my observation after growing up in New England and then moving to Denver, Colorado. People were much more open to conversation than I was previously used to which felt like a breath of fresh air. I realized people in New England seemingly default to a “defensive” interaction mode when conversed with without a pre-shared common ground, such as a task or moment. Its quite apparent when visiting family back east.
Fellow New England -> Colorado transplant. It was pleasantly shocking for me too how much chattier and friendlier people are in Colorado. But now I've lived in Colorado long enough that when I go back to visit New England, it's shocking how cold and taciturn people are there. Conversations with strangers rarely get past "How ya doin?" "Fine and you? "Fine, thanks."
I do appreciate how direct people in the northeast tend to be, and sometimes miss that aspect of the culture.
I grew up in small town Midwest and have now lived in tiny town New England for 20+ years. It still bothers me that folks here in New England won’t even acknowledge you on the sidewalk as you pass each other whereas in the Midwest that is a good excuse for a conversation. They haven’t worn me down though, I still say hello at least to each person as I pass and maybe get a mumble back 50% of the time.
I think a lot of it has to do with the somewhat complicated engagement protocol, if everyone assumes that nobody else wants to talk then it's easier to just keep your head down and at best nod or even avert eye contact but when someone extends a level of conversational courtesy I think people often respond in kind. My challenge is that I don't often have the impulse to break the ice but when I do and feel genuinely outgoing people tend to appreciate the chit chat even if it's just about the weather but I also have many moments of standing awkwardly in elevators silently ascending or walking down the street silently and even feeling awkward ordering food. Being able to consistently be outgoing I feel would be a net positive but I'm not sure what the trick is to just turn it on without it feeling forced.
For what it's worth, this has not been my experience with Americans. There are certainly things that I don't like about the average American, but I find him to be pretty gregarious.
I'm guessing you're either in a big US (northern) city, or along the eastern seaboard.
In the Midwest, if someone starts up a conversation and you don't engage, YOU are the weirdo.
Same, from a Latin country living in Germany and it feels like two different worlds
I think this applies for most of the Europe other than south, though smaller the town more talkative the people I think, in villages with nothing to do are people more likely to be curious about the stranger or just having small talk.
I live in tourist Prague, pretty much never talking with someone other than when I see someone clearly struggling with directions in public transport and I see they go out of the tourist city center I just confirm whether they know it, most of the time* it's not what they intend to do.
*Germans being the exemption, seems they like to do whole team line grim the end to end to see the city even when it's not touristy, for these I have recommendation of some rare above the ground subway sections
I’m in the US in the Bay Area. Talking to strangers is not the norm but plenty of people are responsive and happy to talk if you engage them. Break the norms and see how it goes!
I'm Canadian and this is how I feel about the U.S, but in practice it's turned out to not be true most of time I've tried.
When I was staying with my older brothers, one of their magazines was along the lines of maybe a GQ but in the 90’s, iirc I was probably in middle school, and probably reading content a bit above my age level in terms of concept.
One of their articles though was about “talking to women” but it also emphasized just talking to _anyone_. It had suggestions like “if you’re out at the bar, just ask to sit with a random group, introduce yourself, and have a conversation.”
Many years later in college, I did indeed try this at a bar and was pleasantly surprised. I didn’t make any long term friends, or find a new partner, but I did really start honing the skill of being social with anyone. It’s hard, and especially for me and my social anxiety, it has also really helped me feel more comfortable in places unfamiliar and people unknown.
It really helps to learn in an environment where failure isn't emotionally catastrophic. If you only talk to people that are interesting or important to you, then you can end up learning the wrong things because failure hits so hard. The desperation this can create will further serve to drive people away!
People need to feel like it's safe to develop relations with you, rather than like you're trying to manipulate them into doing so, which is what happens when you learn only from very hard failures.
Wow. I just learned something about myself. Thanks for this insight!
I used to do this constantly but eventually I found it tedious.
The conversation almost always went smoothly and I got the sense my interlocutor was pleasantly surprised to be engaged and had a great time chatting.
But for me it became a chore, rather than a joy. It was “work” like guiding/teaching somebody. The juice was rarely worth the squeeze.
I suppose you're comfortable with it though. Many people aren't comfortable with even the basic step of starting a random conversation or asking strangers questions/for help.
You don't need to do it, but everyone should probably be at least comfortable/confident striking up conversations with people they don't know.
Did people only talk about themselves? It is probably a rare trait when someone legitimately cares about other peoples inane daily lives.
It would be interesting to actually talk to hundreds of people a week for years, you would probably get really good at categorizing people and predicting where they are in life and what their current concerns are.
About themselves or about their political/world views, which are incredibly repetitive
> Did people only talk about themselves? It is probably a rare trait when someone legitimately cares about other peoples inane daily lives.
I love this honestly. I talked to people that insurance that talks about their customer, retired prostitute that have reached financial freedom, NEETs, right wingers, and many other curious people. The reality is that most people are sane, and with a little bit of compassion and empathy, it is possible to "see how they get there".
I suppose these extremes are only available online because people won't open these up in physical meetings.
I have a couple of tricks that get people to talk to me.
Well, they're not really tricks, just things I do anyway.
One is that I wear an aloha shirt every day, and I shop at Trader Joe's.
Quite often someone thinks I work there and asks me where to find something. I usually know where things are, and if I don't, I find them someone who actually does work there.
One time the guy restocking the freezer said, "Nice aloha shirt! I bet people sometimes ask you where to find things."
30 seconds later, a lady walked up to me and asked if we carry organic bread. So I walked her over to the bread section and pointed out some organic options. Then back to the freezer section: "You were right!"
Another trick is to take my cat Oakey for a walk in his cat stroller. People see the stroller and expect to see a baby in it, and are surprised to see a cat! Children walking with their parents especially love to see Oakey, and he enjoys the attention.
Sometimes you just have to seize the moment. Last year I was at a friend's company summer picnic. One of her colleagues brought her ten year old son. He was wearing an astronomy T-shirt. They were sitting at another table, and as they got up I asked him, "Are you into astronomy?"
"Yes."
"I have a very important question for you. Pluto is still a planet, right?"
"Yes it is!"
We high-fived and I said, "Welcome to Team Pluto!"
We've seen each other at subsequent company events. It is always fun to hang out with a fellow astronomy enthusiast of any age.
I think an important parts of this is that "talking to someone" doesn't have to mean a long drawn-out conversation. Even just a few words back and forth is meaningful.
> I highly recommend talking to strangers! People are lovely. Go out and try it.
I’ve been here since 2009 and this is one of the loveliest comments I’ve read.
At face value, it may seem ‘duh!’.. but there’s a distinct aesthetic to it that resonated with me.
Perhaps the best analogy I can think of is Asimov’s philosophy about writing.
‘I want the reader to forget they are reading as if my thoughts are being transmitted directly from my brain into theirs’ [sic]
Recently, a research publication demonstrated that an LLM.. nah, not today. Sometimes knowing the underlying theory and deciding to disengage from it and just appreciate the moment is fine.
Because I can go outside my apartment here in Tokyo right now and try it. I already do, but each of us has our own unique loveliness. So I’ll keep trying. Just because.
I found mixed results given underlying anxiety that hadn't been diagnosed at the point I was trying this. Talking to new people at work, while out pursuing hobbies, and around town, all accrued to more and better conversations.
It was a much bigger struggle with conversations where I was putting extra pressure on myself. Being able to have those other conversations was helpful though. Eventually, I found a therapist and am in a better place with this.
Letting curiosity be the motivator behind starting these conversations and cultivating curiosity more broadly can help -- or at least I have found it to be helpful in making initiating feel less forced. I wonder about people's jobs or the reasons they are visiting a place or what they think about what's happening nearby, or just generally who they are.
One antipattern I've encountered with this approach tho is that sometimes anxious people will exhaust their conversation partners with a battery of questions. Even if thoughtful, this can sometimes have the effect of exhausting your partner, and tends to keep the conversation steered away from actual connection. YMMV, but either way be mindful and make it a point to share yourself
I love this. I know I struggle with "I don't want to bother this person".
How do you deal with that?
> "I don't want to bother this person".
> How do you deal with that?
You teach yourself to say no, to the things you don't want to do.
I considered leaving just that pithy reply, because that's really it. But some of the extra context; It's not a bother to ask someone to hold the door they're already going through because your hands are full. Starting a conversation is about as intrusive as that. The vast majority of people don't mind making some small talk, and ontop of that, the majority can make an excuse if they don't have time. You only assume they can't politely decline, because you can't. Once you learn to say no thanks, politely, but explicitly and directly. You'll actually understand and expect others to return the favor.
That's a much more fair way to interact with people too.
I echo this so much.
I'd add also that learning to hear someone tell you no and not taking it to heart and getting on with your life. So many people walk through life being afraid of hearing someone reply "no" to them, like its some existential rejection of them and that stops them from doing many things.
I'll make chit chat with anyone, and people who dont want to chat with are generally pretty explicit about saying they dont want to chat or don't have time, or pretty obviously implicit about it by not engaging or looking for ways out.
Yeah this is the way. You will lightly bother some people by being talkative. But it’s ok. So long as you’re sensitive to their desire not to talk, you’ll be fine. Nobody will murder you in the night or kick you out of the village.
I live in an apartment (condo). I’ve been practicing making small talk with people in the elevator. The conversations aren’t all winners. Lots of people are closed off or don’t want to chat. But no matter. Elevator conversations are disposable. And most people are genuinely lovely. It’s a fun challenge trying to brighten the days of strangers.
>You teach yourself to say no, to the things you don't want to do.
I feel that line of thinking can have some very grave consequences. My mind is swimming with intrusive thoughts half the time.
Aren't intrusive thoughts the one that any sane person answers with "no"? Why he parks on the bike lane. I want to smash his windshield -- NO!
That is anxiety, you either teach yourself or there is medication if there is bad enough.
If it is just about saying 'no', read this book, it's helped a lot of people:
When I say no, I feel guilty Book by Manuel J. Smith
For me that clicked we are all just kids. Your parents are struggling with some problems in everyday life as you are. Your teachers sometimes might say they don't know the answer to your question in their field which is alright. (Parents and teachers are two figures who we look up to.) My point is that if you're thinking, "they have much more experience and I don't, so no need to bother them.." you're wrong. Basically, they could have more things, but about same lot of problems in the life as you. After that, just start asking simple questions.
As the article says, you just take the risk. Maybe you will bother the person. It’s okay, you’ll be able to quickly tell if you do, and you just gracefully back away and go on with your day. It’ll probably happen much less than you think.
I concur. And would just add two points: (1) Make it that you’re not asking for anything / don’t open with something that could be perceived as a setup to asking for money, or pushing a religion. :) 2) be sensitive to social cues or that they want to be left alone, like terse answers or shifting their attention away from you
I’ve found it can be helpful to shift your own attention after someone answers you, but not to a phone (which just makes you look like you’re communicating with someone else).
Look at a flyer on the wall, or your beverage if you’re in a bar, and they’ll follow up if they want to talk and appreciate the reduced pressure either way.
And yeah, never open a conversation with something like “can I ask you a question?” which is usually a trick of a salesperson or beggar to make you acknowledge them and start saying yes.
This actually jives with my personal experience living in NYC.
New Yorkers have a reputation for being stone cold with strangers, but the truth is that anytime somebody approaches you out of the blue, there's an assumption that they're about to ask for money or try to get in your pants. Once you demonstrate you're not looking for either (or, if the second I suppose, that you're at least smooth enough for it not to be immediately evident), people are generally really kind. With some exceptions, I've usually found that the coldest looking person will stop to give a lost tourist directions if it's clear they're in need.
Yeah NYC is the one place in America I'd love to visit.
But unfortunately it's in America so I'm not going there until you have some sane leaders again :(
When the risk can involve lasting consequences (especially in places like work/school), it makes me not want to bother.
The risk does not involve lasting consequences. Just don’t make things a big deal and people will mostly follow your lead.
Lasting consequences include social outcasting and even dismissal. Those are pretty lasting.
>Just don’t make things a big deal
That sadly doesn't stop the runmors from flowing. That's the real damning thing about such social faux pas. Your reputation can be ruined without having a single person say it to your face. That's both unsettling and morbid for how you look to humanity.
You have to mess up pretty badly for this to happen. Most people would be a lot less worried what others think of them if they realized how rarely the do.
The reality is that most people are too busy thinking about themselves to spend any time thinking about you or a random little interaction that didn’t land
> The reality is that most people are too busy thinking about themselves to spend any time thinking about you
I was fortunate to come to this realization in my 20s and wish I had realized it so much sooner. The vast majority of people are only thinking about themselves the vast majority of the time. This means the anxiousness we feel about what we think other people think about us is mostly made up in our heads.
If you’re not talking to anyone, you’re already a social outcast. In my mind the risk of saying something wrong is much less than the risk of being omitted through inaction.
I'm trying to figure out in what situation asking someone a general question like 'how is your day going?' going to have lasting negative consequences.
My grandpa had a gift for people - the man could start a conversation with anyone, form fast friends and remember their spouse’s middle name in twenty years.
As he put it, it’s a coin toss. Maybe you’re bothering them or maybe they’re grateful to have someone to distract them. Each is equally true before you start the conversation.
The key is being able to read social cues. If you can, you can stop bothering them.
People here acting like anyone interested in this article aren't already struggling to "read social cues".
Would you be bothered if a stranger struck up a nice conversation with you? Most people like it! And even if they don’t, that’s ok, trust people to tell you their boundaries and respect them when they do. Nothing wrong with bothering someone if they tell you or send a strong signal and you respect it.
See my answer to that question is “er, yes, obviously??!” and so I assume, apparently incorrectly, that everyone is like me.
If it's obvious to you that everyone should be bothered by people being friendly then there's an error in your reasoning process.
Different experiences. Few people are friendly for frienliness' sake. The first step is to get your guard down.
I said "obvious" and "everyone". I think your level of paranoia is irrational, but in addition it's not required of everyone with those different experiences.
Good point, maybe things would be more friendly if the prevailing reasoning were not as isolating.
I think the default is sociability too, but for reasons it does seem to be on the retreat.
> Would you be bothered
>basically anywhere there are other people,
Seems like a perfectly legitimate prerogative to me anyway. Actually more "popular" than ever from some of the comments.
>They just can't understand that people wouldn't want to talk to them.
This however does not follow completely logically.
More like "They just can't realize that of all the people who would want to talk to them, you aren't one of them."
No harm done regardless.
I'm guessing you're either from the midwest US, or not from the US. Am I right?
I'm from the US and not the Midwest. Not rural either. If I'm clearly doing something it might bother me, otherwise I would find it nice to meet someone new. I have mild asd and large gatherings cause anxiety, but if I'm just sitting people watching or on a stroll, talking to one or two people wouldn't bother or stress me.
I probably shouldn't even legitimize this absurdity by responding to it, but no. And if the answer were yes, that would not validate the fallacious reasoning processes leading to this guess. Here's a hint: reread my comment, focusing on the words "obvious" and "everyone".
I won't comment further.
I have a hard time imagining this. What kind of scenario are you imagining?
Yes, 100%. I don’t want to have a surface-level conversation with a stranger.
I’m also never going to be rude about it — unless you are first. Just pick up on the obvious hints that I’m not super into talking.
> Would you be bothered if a stranger struck up a nice conversation with you?
Yes. If I am basically anywhere there are other people, I am there for a specific reason, and anyone trying to talk to me for anything else is bothering me. I've found that most people that try to start conversations with strangers are really poor at reading signals that their actions are unwanted and they only stop when you say something so out of their comfort zone they have no idea how to handle it. They just can't understand that people wouldn't want to talk to them.
And after this article and thread, we can add I don't want to be your practice dummy to the reasons you're bothering me.
The example in the article is a waiting room. Or you could be waiting to catch the subway, or in line at the grocery store. In those situations how is somebody trying to talk to you preventing you from completing your task? Otherwise you're probably just scrolling your phone; sometimes I fill these gaps with things like podcasts, but even then it's not like what I'm doing is urgent.
I prefer to be left alone with my thoughts.
I am wherever for a reason, and that reason is not to be social. I am thinking about what I am doing next, what I need to bring up in whatever thing I'm waiting for, or quite frankly any number of things. You are interrupting me. You'd probably get it if we changed things up and instead of standing in line, we said you were staring out the window while sitting at your desk. You're clearly doing nothing right and talking to you isn't interrupting what your task is because your task is just typing code, and we did just say you're not doing that.
You are bothering me trying to talk to me when I am out, because I am only out to do things specifically. Just because I am currently doing something (waiting) that you deem unimportant or an indicator I am free does not make it so.
I usually just start with a small harmless joke about the current situation we're both in. People either don't respond to it, and I leave them alone, or they engage and a conversation commences.
Let's hear the joke.
"Your tax dollars at work"
Applies to almost any situation, really.
All of these have to be told light-hearted, as observational "jokes". Not like you are actually annoyed. You're just making light of a situation.
"I guess the bus is just never on time here, huh"
(Stuck in line at the grocers) "Friday evening rush-hour"
Same kind of thing with whatever you are observing, at the Doctor, in the gym, waiting for the light to turn, etc, etc.
It's all shit jokes if you can even call them that. But the purpose isn't to start a standup routine, it's to share a situation with a stranger and open up the floor to conversation. You are basically just indicating to a stranger: "Hey, I'm open for conversation", they can then choose to respond or just ignore the remark. Then you go from there.
Exactly this - yesterday I was in line at the grocery store and the cashier and customer ahead of me were complaining about our long, frigid winter (not normal for this region) - I joked about how if the long-range forecasts were correct we will be up to +18c next Saturday and we all laughed about the launch straight from winter into "summer". And we all moved on - not everything has to be an in-depth conversation.
Turd Ferguson; that's a funny name
I think that it comes down to that people often like to talk about their interests but worry that the recipient may not be. So we end up with two people who want to talk but worried about the others feelings.
Then just disengage the conversation when this happens
These are called questions. They’re great. Hell, if you want to be regarded as a great conversationalist and great storyteller, all you have to do is ask questions.
Do you get bothered when someone talks to you in a nice fashion?
If the answer is, "of course not". Pull that thread. Honestly, so much "therapy" for some of us boils down to confronting/examining that disconnect and exploring why it exists/how it came to be.
Thanks for completing my comment :)
Not the guy you asked, but my answer is: only if they are panhandling. Otherwise I usually feel a little surprised that someone would have any interest in my thoughts. So I feel a bit tickled if they have genuine interest.
I genuinely get bothered when someone talks to me. I am typically rushing through my day to do stuff, whether it is hiking, grocery shopping, working out, or going to the restroom at work, and getting interrupted feels to me like getting an unwanted push notification on your phone.
When someone occasionally engages, I extremely quickly dismiss them in the most polite, but firm, way possible. I also intentionally keep a demeanor that generally signals I’m not open to random conversations (I avoid eye contact etc.), but that often doesn’t work. At the gym it is particularly problematic, I’m focusing on gathering strength for my next set and sometimes people bother you even if I am wearing headphones.
I truly do not have a problem with who I am, I’m comfortable in my shoes.
As such, never in a million years I would approach a stranger to strike up a conversation, it would seem an incredibly rude thing to do towards them, on top of clearly not having any desire to engage from my side.
I’ll talk for hours straight to my wife, close family and the very few friends I have though!
> I extremely quickly dismiss them in the most polite, but firm, way possible.
And I think that's the answer; people who don't want to talk will simply tell you! And everyone carries on.
But they said it's rude just to speak to them ... which is a factually erroneous characterization.
Fascinating how much this varies by culture too. People generally have attitudes similar to you in Nordic countries, or even Seattle, but then you go to South American countries, or India, and it feels like everyone talks to everyone all the time.
I have found people in Seattle are very friendly and ready to talk. Maybe not on a morning commute, but in general.
Danes are, according to the internet, in the "don't talk to me ever" group, but I don't think that true. Mostly I believe that's because the areas of the internet where people talk about the glory of self-checkout and the benefits of wearing big ass head phones are a little self-selective in their view of the world.
Obviously you should not bother people, but even in random encounters many people absolutely loves to talk. In many you can see their eyes light up if you talk to them of ask them a question. The internet has us so conditioned to believing that people just want to be left alone that we miss out on a ton of wonderful human interaction.
We honestly can't keep both talking about a loneliness epidemic and at the same time push the narrative "don't talk to me ever". We should absolutely respect e.g. people on the autism spectre or anxiety and their issues with talking to strangers, but I feel like we're allowing them to dictate a mode of interaction, or avoidance thereof, which isn't healthy for the rest of us.
> it would seem an incredibly rude thing to do
It's one thing to not want it and to be comfortable not wanting it, but viewing it as rude goes way beyond that and is not rational.
The golden rule disagrees.
I am bothered by random people wanting to talk to me -> Randomly talking to other people would bother them -> Bothering people is rude -> Randomly talking to people is rude.
Hence why the platinum rule is better. Once you know that other people (apparently!) aren't bothered by randomly striking up a conversation, you can adjust your actions accordingly.
> The golden rule disagrees.
No, that rule does not say "it is rude for others to do unto you differently from how you would do unto them"--it's about how you should behave toward others, not a justification for your negative judgment of how others behave toward you.
I agree that the platinum rule is better, but that difference is not the problem here.
I don't judge them negatively. They're working based on the available information. That line of reasoning is the exact same that I would use if it weren't for the fact that I have better information available and thus can apply the platinum rule. I don't enjoy random conversations, and would consider it rude to engage in them if it weren't for the fact people seem to enjoy them. Since they do, I try to engage in them when people try to strike one up.
If I didn't have that information (and people used the golden rule consistently and weren't just knobheads), then I would be consistently annoyed at people not following the golden rule. As long as my theory of mind doesn't include 'other people generally enjoy random conversations', my perception would be that the golden rule is consistently broken by people striking up random conversations.
Sigh. Why do I even bother to point out errors in logic here.
Yes
Interesting. How come?
Because I'm busy inside of my own head and they interrupted my flow.
Fair enough! It's definitely annoying to be forced out of your context
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/introvert
Introvert does not mean "doesn't like talking to people".
I do. Unless you're an attractive women, just leave me alone.
Hahaha, oh boy.
Just practice. You will inevitably run into ppl that don’t want to talk. Don’t take it personally, don’t push it and try again
Learn the social cues. People won’t say when they are busy. They might not ask you questions back, or keep doing what they do.
You virtually never bother them - worst case they’ll turn you down.
On the contrary, they’re usually very happy to tell you about what they do.
I got a puppy. Then everyone wanted to talk to my puppy.
Same here but with human children.
How did you get human children?
Hospital has plenty. The key is coming in after hours.
Morgue too, for both assertions above.
(okay, that joke was tasteless, but admit it - you probably giggled before you remembered to be horrified)
Talking to the right women.
If they seem uninterested in talking, tell them to have a nice day, then carry on with yours.
> "I don't want to bother this person".
This is a common mistake many make - please don't be a "mind reader" and make assumptions. Seek clarification. Treat people like adults, and act like adults - you have the right to talk to anyone or ask someone for help. They have the right to be dismissive towards you or say no for whatever personal reason. People have different personalities. Sometimes, even nice people people act differently depending on the day they had and their moods. The point is, if they are strangers, you don't need to attribute any meaning or malice to this. However, always be mindful of social conventions and cultural practices.
Most people crave conversation and interaction. Those that are busy enough to potentially really be bothered will either show that clearly, or tell you so.
In some age groups/environments, sure; but not in general. And if folks crave interaction they want it to be deeper than a surface level.
That's not saying you should not try, but learn to recognize early signs of folks not being interested and don't push it.
Where do you think deep social interaction starts?
Wherever it starts, it requires both sides willingness to go beyond the level of "quite a weather, huh". Without which the right approach is a quick and graceful exit. My 2c.
You're not afraid of bothering them, you're afraid of rejection. But so what if they do? The fear isn't rational, so choose to overcome it.
Don't talk to me though, while I am trying to do focused work ...
Or other people who are really busy right now, but in general yes, most people enjoy random interactions and talks. And most people do have interesting things to share. You have to have genuine interest, though. Don't force it - but be open for it. Make eye contact first and then you might connect. It is astonishing how many grim looking people suddenly start to smile and act friendly, if you just start a friendly conversation with them. Even if it is just a exchange of a simple comments.
Also talk to you; that’s part of learning how to. It prepares you for rejection of all sorts.
I can't recommend being intentionally rude so that you can get practice dealing with people who are pissed off at you. Learning how to tell when it's a bad time to strike up a conversation with a stranger will be a much greater benefit for anyone looking to meet women or even for someone just working on being friendlier/more social. There'll be no shortage of opportunities to learn how to deal with rejection even without being a pest.
> I can't recommend being intentionally rude...
As I understand, GP is recommending that folks take a risk that their drumming up a conversation might be unwelcome if they are unsure. They're not advocating for folks to harass people who are in no position to chat or who have stated as much.
People can't read minds, so I think we owe grace to the folks around us if they misread a situation and respect your wishes when you let them know that it's you're unwilling or unable to chat at the moment.
While it's great to learn social cues, it's often impossible to know whether someone is in the mood to chat.
I cannot agree with that. Do not be shy about trying, but do not be a pest either. There are many times when interruptions are not good for both sides. My 2c.
To summarize, the suggestion was to live like you live in the Midwest outside of urban/suburban areas. That's very funny to me.
My spouse had a hard time acclimating to rural Midwest life after living in a mega city on the East Coast. She complained that everything takes an extra half hour for time spent standing around talking about nothing.
It never dawned on me that if you're from a place, like a large city, where interacting with strangers or very distant acquaintances isn't encouraged, that this would not be a natural part of life.
I find this interesting but don't know what to do with that.
Yup. I’m super social and extroverted, in the sense that I love meeting new people and if I’m introduced to anyone I make connections easily. But I can’t in a million years be the one breaking the ice.
This is in big part due to being born and raised in a large European capital. There’s unwritten barriers you respect as a social rule, and if someone breaks the rule you assume they’re trying to sell something or scam you. To me talking to a stranger unprompted feels as out of place as pulling my pants down in public.
It’s natural for these barriers to exist to make dense spaces liveable, but they do constrain you.
That's like that scene from Crocodile Dundee - for those that don't know the movie, the guy is from some tiny town way out in the sticks in Australia, and visits NY. In the scene I'm thinking of, Dundee walks down a street in NY following his usual habit of greeting everyone, which is difficult as they don't expect it and there are too many anyway.
I used to live in a rural area and I found it so claustrophobic. I hate living in a place where I've seen everyone's face, know every street and every building. It feels so limiting, there's nothing to explore, no magic shops or communities to discover.
And also, I really hated the religious mindset with all the little rules they have, the hatred for lgbt people, single parents, foreigners etc. There were good people too but you always had to watch who was around to have a chat. I'm very progressive and atheist. And very alternative.
My ex who was from this community even got in trouble with some parents because she told the kids she was minding that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. Apparently it's normal to deny all the progress we have made as a society.
I just couldn't deal with it, it just made me so depressed. And this wasn't even in the US but just in Europe.
In the city it's much easier to find open-minded people. And the ones who aren't don't control public life. I don't ever want to live in a rural area again after that (though in fairness I do have some ptsd from it).
I live in a rural area (not in the US though). Everyone knows I'm a weirdo, and almost all of them are cool with it. This is how people lose their prejudices - they meet a foreigner, or a single mother, or a gay person, and they discover that they like them
I don't think that happens really.
I was a foreigner in that country too and there's been so many times that people were bitching about foreigners with me present, only to realise and go like 'present company excepted of course' as if that makes it ok.
In my experience it just made me the exception to their prejudices but did nothing to actually remove them.
And I was not in the US either by the way.
> People are lovely. Go out and try it.
I hope this is not an inappropriate question, but are you by any chance fit and/or attractive? I've heard that and being well dressed affects your experience with people a lot.
For me it's a mix, the majority at least try to be decent and pleasant, no argument there. But as with many other things, the minority who aren't tend to have a much bigger impact. Honestly, I'd take just being safe from violence from people is good enough for me, even that isn't a given.
I agree. 95% of violence is committed by men aged 15-25. If you wanted to be extra sure, just avoid that very specific group. But in general, minute by minute, nobody wants to be violent.
But then I'd be prejudiced. Stereotypes exist because they have a certain good degree of accuracy, but that doesn't make them right. For the sake of that one person in that group that didn't do anything wrong, I have to try and be fair to the whole group.
This is where you use this stereotype to do a more detailed evaluation of the person to decide if they're safe/worth engaging with, or avoid them entirely if it's not worth it to you. You might bring in other stereotypes at this point and apply this process recursively until you have no more statistical regularities to use to guide your behavior.
The funny thing is that if they recommended guessing based on race, rather than gender and age, the comment would be downvoted to hell.
Funny how? Are you suggesting some races are more violent? Not all immutable characteristics are made equal.
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No, no it isn't.
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Care to share a similar break-down by race, income, and wealth? From what i looked up, the average black income is $56k/yr but for white it is $92k/yr. 20% and 7.5% respectively for percent of the population that's under the poverty line.
Also for the same crime stats 69% for white and 26% for black is what I'm seeing for 2024-2025, with 60% and 30% of the population respectively. so 13% more for black and 9% more for white, we're talking about a 4% difference when looking at overall crime. accounting for reporting issues and requirements is a different story. Just like your other comment, such a deceptive line of thinking you people like to push. The numbers you show are accurate, but the interpretations you interpolate are lies of omission, or at best willful ignorance to support a prejudice.
Even for correlating with age I don't agree with this type of conclusion that lacks the lightest touch of critical thinking.
Maybe if you control for other factors, you’ll find out that men in general also aren’t that dangerous after all…
Is that all crime or violent crime?
Hmmmm, I wonder why black people are arrested more.
Hmmmm, I wonder why men are arrested more.
Yeah, buddy, you're just a good old fashioned racist. Men commit most violent crimes too by the way, I'm sure you knew that. So in short, to follow your logic, everyone should stay way from men, people under 25 and people who're not white or asian. Only white and asian women over 25 are safe?
And of course 99% of crimes (felonies) are committed by people over 15, so they're not safe as well.
You know, the problem with people like you is that you've already decided what result you want to see. So you'll observe evidence, and you'll criticize it, until it fits the narrative you're expecting. Whereas a person looking for truth, will continue to criticize the results even when the results make sense to them, or fit their expectations and prejudices. When the data confirms your prejudice you feel vindicated and cling on to it.
If you look at a heat map overlay of crimes in the US, you'll certainly see areas where black people live and have lived historically with the most crimes. If you did the same with the data representing current and historical poverty rates you'll see the same pattern. Heck, I've even seen maps of the US south that compare all of that data with soil fertility, it turns out the areas where cotton would grow the most is where the slaves were imported into, and then after the civil war ..well you probably know the rest.
Either way, I think you missed what I said originally in this thread about justice and fairness. You wouldn't want to be held responsible for an arbitrary group someone else placed you in, would you now? so why do that to others.
Numbers are also deceptive, would you be concerned more about mass shootings, rape, child abuse, human trafficking, robbery? crimes of poverty, crimes of vice, crimes of psycopathy. If I'm going to school I'd care more about mass shooters, if I'm a woman and jogging, I'd care more about rape, but even then recent trends are more important than generalized long term stats. For some crimes just one incident a year is too much, for others you can have thousands and it might still be normal with a big enough population (e.g.: car break ins).
The thing that pisses me off the most with your kind of thinking is that even following your reasoning, why is race important? You presume some kind of biological connection. Even among racists, some prefer to ask questions and follow the "it's their culture" thinking, which has some merit, as Europeans are finding out from all the recent migrations. But you know the really insidious part of your reasoning? When you see a certain group being convicted of crimes more than others, your assumption is they commit more crimes, instead of asking if the cops are arresting and targeting that group more than other groups.
I mean, it isn't really a big secret, you can be a rich guy on wallstreet and snort coke night and day and you'll be left alone. But people serve decades in prison for possessing weed that's legal in other states. There are cities like portland and SF that have a largely white population that see lots of crimes of poverty and opportunity as well, similar to other cities where those people tend to have more melanin on them. I urge you to visit seattle or portland, with an expensive car, you should follow the local custom of unlocking your car, so they don't break the window when they want to go through your things to see if there's anything worth taking (they still break the window though, most are too lazy to check if the door is open).
> you're just a ...
> the problem with people like you is ...
> your kind of thinking ...
~ https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html[flagged]
I wish it was just media. And it's certainly not random, I wouldn't expect violence in a decent neighborhood. But I would on the subway in NYC for example (depends on the line too I guess). And by violence I don't mean necessarily assault, but anything that involves the cops, getting arrested, etc.. or certain forms of mistreatment (even though it's a stretch to call them violence).
I mentioned attractiveness because when I dress up nice and lose weight, it's a wildly different world. When that isn't the case I'd say at least 60% of my interactions with people is negative. Out of that I'd say maybe 2% is extreme enough to be considered violence in my view.
I'll say this though, I didn't mean we should avoid interaction or being nice to each other in the off chance people are unpleasant or unkind. I'm just saying, don't go into it with that expectation unless you're pleasant to look at yourself.
Some people, especially as they grow old (and especially women unfortunately), see a remarkable decline in how they're treated, and that in turn causes them to be jaded towards people. If you don't tie how people respond to you to how you treat them to begin with (It's huge struggle for me, not preaching here), it's less of a bitter pill.
> I wish it was just media. And it's certainly not random, I wouldn't expect violence in a decent neighborhood. But I would on the subway in NYC for example (depends on the line too I guess). And by violence I don't mean necessarily assault, but anything that involves the cops, getting arrested, etc.. or certain forms of mistreatment (even though it's a stretch to call them violence).
The fear of crime is more socially harmful than crime itself, net.
A hundred years ago, folks in the US trusted their neighbors more, despite violent crime being more likely than today. The US is objectively safer now, but, ironically, people are more afraid than ever of talking with strangers, and more distrustful of their neighbors.
If folks back then could chat with a stranger without being gripped by paranoia, I think we can do it today. Don’t let the media scare you from living life. Have chit-chat. Have fun!
It's not paranoia, look at this thread alone and the responses from @xigoi , even on HN which is heavily moderated and leans to more liberal views. Terrible people are plenty. I'd think after the past few elections in the US that was obvious. Violence isn't the only reason to be cautions with strangers, mistreatment is another reason, having a negative interaction in general is unpleasant.
The solution is not to pretend people's experiences are invalid, or that somehow reducing the risk of harm is wrong, but to find ways to adapt, and be prepared to handle or dismiss negative interactions, as well as value the benefits of positive ones.
What kind of violence have you experienced from striking up friendly conversations with strangers in otherwise normal circumstances? What are you talking about?
Are you ugly?
It's unfortunate there are limits on what we can say on HN, I had a nice yomama joke lined up.
I highly recommend talking to strangers! People are lovely. Go out and try it.
I did this a few times and it surprisingly worked. I was able to make small talk about an article I was reading. Did it matter that I didn't come off with the confidence of Tony Robbins? No.
This advice is not for everyone.
Obviously this works only if you are an extrovert. Introverts would find this kind of interaction a wasteful use of limited social energy available to them.
I think it absolutely is for everyone, especially for introverts. It's a muscle, go train it. Source: me.
You can train it. You can even be good at it. But if you don't enjoy it, should you really be doing it?
Yes, because it's important. And also figure out why you don't enjoy it, and whether that's a self-reinforcing thing. At the very least you can make it something neutral instead of something you actively dislike and avoid.
But why? If I don't enjoy talking to anyone and everyone, why should I be doing it? What's wrong with focusing on people who matter to me?
It's not like I don't give people a chance, but I'm pretty quick in identifying and cutting off people who are draining my energy, even if they are otherwise quite nice and enjoyable company for others.
> If I don't enjoy talking to anyone and everyone, why should I be doing it?
There's probably something to be said about this world being largely built for extroverts and needing to be able to be at least somewhat like that to succeed. Sometimes good opportunities are just a matter of showing up and being sociable, and being good at it.
If you're gonna have to do it, might as well get better at it and get at least somewhat used/desensitized to it. A part of it is also about picking up on social cues, making others comfortable around you and establishing relationships - like those anecdotes about someone who has a really good CV not being able to compete to someone who knows someone at the company, but obviously not just in the professional world.
I don't necessarily like that it's the way it is and have missed out on A LOT of opportunities due to being quite introverted but oh well.
Or us introverts just slowly die out simply by being absent from the gene pool. However, judging by the article - we seem to be winning. Somehow.
Then there isn't really anything to argue over. No one should have to convince you. Either you see its value or you don't.
Yes. It's like exercise. Or eating healthy. I don't enjoy working out but I should really be doing it. I really enjoy eating sweets, but I should not be doing that all the time.
An analogy isn't an answer to "why", it's a literary device to make it easier to understand a concept.
Even if talking to people is beneficial (I can accept that), you're also shaming people for being introverts. Nobody should be faulted for enjoying me-time. It isn't even harmful. No, it's not like eating too many sweets.
I have ADHD with terrible social anxiety, and conventional treatments only help so much.
I know I can eventually beat it, and I'm so happy for you and everyone who beats social anxiety. You are my idols!
That said, I don't like it when someone says "yeah just do it, it's possible". It's not possible to just do it. Yeah only doing the thing is doing the thing and preparing to do it is not doing the thing, I get it. On the other hand, you can also jump off a cliff without checking your parachute, just saying.
This advice is not for everyone.
Categorizing yourself in a way that may purposefully stunt your growth and reduce opportunity for growth is a wasteful use of life.
That's something an extrovert would say :)
Strong words. I'd like to understand your choice of words here.
> Categorizing yourself
Also known as knowing yourself, your strengths, and your weaknesses.
> purposefully stunt your growth
A wild assumption that talking to everyone will magically let you grow. Some people just prefer to focus on people that matter to them.
> ... reduce opportunity for growth
By choosing to compete in an area that is your weakness, you already limited your growth potential.
> ... wasteful use of life
So refusing to talk to everyone is a wasteful use of life. Again, I find it more wasteful to talk to anyone instead of people who matter to me. Unless it's fun, of course.
Categorising / knowing yourself is important for sure - I think in the case of the extrovert/introvert thing, it's an important first step to helping yourself, because in my experience/anecdotally, a lot of introverts know they're different from others, yet feel insecure or anxious about it. Awareness and acceptance won't make you "not an introvert" suddenly, but it can help recover from the awkwardness, self-doubt and anxiety. Still anecdotally, me and some other people who (10, 15 years ago or so) learned about introversion found more peace with themselves, that it's OK to want to be home, and that they learn to say "no" or "you know something, I've had enough and am going home".
Learning about who you are helps you know your limits and boundaries, which means you can learn to do more within your comfort zone and how far you can stretch it, which means your comfort zone expands and you can do more. That's the kind of growth I think comes with categorising oneself.
Excellent points.
Knowing who you are and what your boundaries are is important. Being an introvert is not a weakness, as much as being an extrovert is not a strength. It's only that extroverts are louder and more assertive, and that way they convinced the majority of people in between that everyone should be an extrovert.
There's a certain amount of evidence that getting over anxiety is harder if you try to do it by doing the thing you are most anxious about.
An alternative is to do things which allow you to become more comfortable with a reasonable degree of personal risk. Which can include things like rock climbing which you do on your own.
Making global declarations about introverts isn't really useful beyond the basics. I'm an introvert and my life has gotten noticeably better once I started intentionally talking to people more. I still need to have my own time to recharge. That hasn't changed. The thing that changed is that I'm not longer inhabiting the self-imposed prison of thinking social interaction was not for me.
Not sure why you got downvoted with a perfectly valid opinion!
I’ve done what OP describes but I’m heavily introverted and likely HSP too. I’m pretty good at it but it’s incredibly exhausting. My father is exactly the same way.
As I get older, the more I consider self care and prioritising my own needs over others to be happy. To that end, I much prefer to keep to myself and so I do.
However it doesn’t stop me from engaging in impromptu conversations. I just don’t go out of my way to talk to literally everyone.
Exactly my point, you just formulated it better than I could.
The problem with extroverts is they assume everyone is like them. And they are pretty loud and push their opinions on others without the ability to listen and reflect. They would ignore that you are not like them, and would come up with all the arguments about "trying", "limiting growth", "training the muscles".
You can't accept that I know what's good for me? You want to change me? You think you know me better than I do? Then fuck you, I'll just stop talking to you without even telling you why.
And that's the exact reason why, in the real world, I just stop any communication with them. If they cannot adjust their communication so it can be enjoyable to me, I'm not going to pretend I enjoy communicating with them.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted but yes, this is true.
I don't want or need to talk to everyone, and I generally don't appreciate people I don't know or won't know in five minutes to engage me in idle chatter. Just leave me be.
I'm not a grouch, I'm not a grump, I'll be friendly but why do you have to harass me?
I'm perfectly comfortable in my own skin, doing my own thing, by myself. I don't have social anxiety, I'm not a misanthrope. Just let me be.
Introverts aren't broken. You don't have to impose yourself on everyone else.
As someone who works extensively with youth, but is somewhat of a extrovert..
There are many reasons why people are introverts. Some of them are "broken" and could use a fix, some are healthy and should not be touched.
If the source is a lack of confidence, it should be dealt with. Sometimes the fix involves pushing oneself to talk beyond their comfort level, sometimes not.
If the source is a form of ASD or Autism spectrum, then it depends very much on what the "introvertness" is costing them. If the person is either suffering or is living out of touch with reality, that's broken. Sometimes talking is absolutely required to create a fix. (Over here, even more-so, getting guidance is a must. Which is a shame since the more a person on the spectrum needs guidance the less he is likely to accept it)
If the source is an understanding of one's relative position (eg. at a meeting of seniors) then that's fine, but too much of that can be unhealthy.
If it's from depression, than please don't introvert. Get professional help.
If you are so into your phone that you've forgotten the joy of interaction with humans, that's broken. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in this category, and social media and AI are making things worse. (Nothing new though - 30 years ago I helped a kid who was watching 18+ hours of video, on a CRT! He was mighty introverted, and wanted nothing to do with us humans for weeks after starting treatment.)
If you are just a confident guy/gal that just happens to enjoy your own space, than all the power to you! From what I have heard there are a LOT of people that fall into this category, and I have even meet two or three of you!
But let me stress, even if things are broken, the advice in this article can often make things worse. And if it's not a problem for you, enjoy!
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Talking to strangers is one of my favorite things to do. Airplanes, trains, or just waiting at the coffee shop for them to make my drink. I have met so many interesting people and it’s almost always a joy.
Now, you occasionally end up talking to someone who confesses to you that their post-nuclear dream life is to be a mother figure to a band of semi-aware ghouls. Goofy in the moment, but makes for a great story to share over a beer!
I used to do this during long travel in planes, buses or trains when I was single backpacker.
Now traveling with my own family is just exhausting chore and I couldn't care less about stranger sitting next to me, I heard enough stories for whole my life since I traveled a lot.
Recently I traveled with my mother to China and she was excited to talk with some girl next to her on long flight, I didn't find any value gained from such conversation and would rather watch a movie (or outside window is that was an option) and find it harder and harder older I get to see the added value.
I can see how that could happen, but I’d argue that the “value added” is just the opportunity to talk to someone.
I was once decently intoxicated on a subway ride home and I saw a man looking at the floor who seemed upset. I asked him how he was doing and he said “alright.” We chatted a little and he randomly asked me, “do you have a brother?” I told him I did and he asked me, “is there anything your brother could do that would be unforgivable?” I said, “I’m sure there are things he could do that would be beyond forgiveness, but I would have to think long and hard about given how permanent that decision could be. Cutting someone out of your life can be a good thing, but make sure it’s what you think is right because you may never have the opportunity to undo it.”
He seemed to really appreciate the advice and went on his way. I’m not sure what his brother did, but I hope they are able to figure it out. Those types of interactions are (IMO) one of life’s little pleasures.
I try to talk to everyone but it gets exhausting since most people don't seem to want to talk. And in almost every instance, I had a feeling they wouldn't. Go with your gut and don't try to talk to everyone if you're like me and don't want to replay awkward conversations in your head for the rest of the night.
That is a great reminder.
I have a note at the beginning of my journal that says: 'Stand up straight, eye contact, smile', because I constantly need to remember that or I will look down, slouch and move through the world barely interacting with anyone.
Please also recognize when others don't really want to talk. Not everybody want to go beyond cultural niceties of a smile and "hi, how you doing". I don't want to be a jerk, but I also don't like to talk to random strangers.
This will never be me (I find any kind of smalltalk excruciating). But I'm so grateful, not to say relieved, that there are people like you. Society needs you.
>People are lovely.
That just hasn't been my experience.
"EXCUSE ME, SIR! I see you are moving with great intention. Might your hurriedness be in connection with those papers you hold in your hand? Pray tell, for I much desire to converse! Aah, I see, I was right to assume you were in a hurry. Anyway, it must be wonderful to be working at a place as beautiful as this, is it not? Hah ha ha yees, isn't it wonderful. Well, alright then be on your way if you must."
Sorry but I couldn't help imagining you as the fake health inspector from Fawlty Towers while reading your comment.
I do agree with you though, talking is great, we are social animals even though modern life allows us to forget this, to our own detriment.
One of the last strangers I talked to pretended I didn't exist:)
Of course, not everyone wants to talk while in public, and not everyone knows how to politely decline a conversation. That's also fine, everyone's somewhere on the social spectrum(s).
Until you run into an A-hole whose response ruins the rest of your day when you were just trying to be sociable. I could even see getting physically assaulted for trying to talk to the wrong stranger. I like where your heart is at, unfortunately many people out there are not deserving of it.
The idea of practicing these random interactions is also to get accustomed to rejections from the assholes. After all, they aren’t the majority- most people are actually quite nice and often appreciate a company (or will politely tell you they don’t need one)
This made me reflect on online interactions.
Agreeable comments will draw comparatively fewer replies, while disagreeable ones achieve the opposite.
But this then results in a "false experience" for the individual, where unlike in real life, the bad exchanges do not end up outweighed by the good ones, as you simply don't go on to have those. You just upvote and move on (often to avoid redundancy).
Maybe if the two were tied together (voting either up / down & sending a reply), communities would work healthier? I don't know. Not like it's easy to have this tried out.
I could definitely see challenges to this though, the aforementioned redundancy being one. I have some countermeasure ideas, but then I wonder if that would make the UX complicated enough to drive people away instead, which is a lose-lose.
It's not the majority, but one black eye will make you rethink everything regardless.
Man, how many "hey, how are you"s do you think are ending in a black eye? What ridiculous hyperbole.
Yeah, some of the responses in this thread I hope are just jokes. Asking someone how their day is going is bare minimum social behavior that should carry zero risk of anything.
I am guessing you have not struggled with social anxiety
Only takes one. Humans are trained to remember the pain more than the typical. That's my point.
Well, keep going with asking people "how are you" until someone gives you a black eye. Then you can stop.
I would assume that before that happens your natural death would come first.
I mean, why does it ruin your day? It's just some random person - you'll likely never see them again, or you'll know to avoid them in the future. Why is the opinion of some rando weighing on you so much?
This whole thread is about wanting to talk with strangers because it makes you feel good, if approval from strangers makes you feel good the natural corollary is rejection from strangers can also make you feel bad. It would be bit weird to go out of your way to talk to people because you'd enjoy their kindness but then when they're unkind turn around all like "oh I never cared about you anyway". Isn't it?
have you had actually negative interactions like that? they sting for years, even after hundreds of mild-to-positive ones. the brain focuses on risk-minimization and not reward-maximization.
"The" brain, or just yours? Mine certainly doesn't obsess over a bad interaction "even after hundreds of mild-to-positive ones."
It depends, which is really funny.
My brain on a Monday in a crap mood driving on the highway: that jerk that just cut me off has ruined my entire day.
My brain on Friday after good sleep and a relaxing morning: heh look at the guy, he's definitely in a hurry. Hope he gets where he's going, back to my jams!
I try to train myself to remember to be Friday brain, but sometimes Monday brain comes out and I'm in a funk that makes me forget I actually have a choice about NOT reacting a specific way. I like to think I'm getting better at consistently not sweating the small stuff and just letting those instances go without giving them an appreciable amount of mental space better suited to relaxing and listening to good music.
And how is it going with women?
This is great. Thanks, and cheers.
I have tried this at various times. But, while some people are lovely, there are some that are miserable and there are plenty that are simply... uninterested. When you are slightly awkward, not particularly attractive, and not wealthy, you have to get used to people just turning away, avoiding eye contact, expressing mild cues of disgust, and so forth. It's really quite painful to try.
> People are lovely
They really are not.
It's great as long as they don't turn out to be a creep. And that's terrible advice for practicing talking to women. Talking to a person you're attracted to, or want anything from in general, isn't going to present the same way. No matter how much you practice. Attractive women have to deal with that, all day, every day. They'll shut it down quickly if they're not interested. You'll be the creep if you don't quietly take the hint, and walk away, when they're not.
An old guy sat at the table next to mine at an outdoor cafe. I don't remember what I said to start the conversation but he told me he'd lived in Japan for 3yrs in the 50s, married a Japanese woman, they moved to Redondo Beach and she convinced him to buy a house more than they could afford. He said it was the best decision of their lives. He then said she'd past away a few years ago and they had no kids.
I ask him what he thought of the population crisis Japan is facing. He said said that was bullshit and that 8 billion people in the world are way too many.
And that was when I stopped talking to him.
Why so quick to moralize? What makes you think your perspective on world population is justified and his isn't?
This could have been an opportunity for both of you to understand each other's perspective. That's why you asked their thoughts on the matter right? It's a shame you let that pass you by.
I asked his thoughts on the matter because I assumed he didn't want to see Japan end since he had a connection to it. But, he didn't give a fuck if they ended, nor Korea.
And if you think they'y aren't ending, you need to go look at the numbers and then look at the double speak on solutions. There are no known solutions. Every solution requires a miracle that has never happened.
Thank you for explaining. Could be he's a misanthrope, through life experiences or such.
I share the same sentiments as you, it'd be a tragic loss. But saying they'd "end" is well, unlikely. The countries will shrink. Japan population could reach 60M by 2100 if nothing is done. That's still a lot of people and by then other factors will dominate and fertility may rise again.
Humans are adaptive and a lot can change in half a century, so I would not overly index on what projections say. Everything would need to stay static for the projections to matter, which given the rate of technological changes and geopolitical tension, sounds likely.
> I asked his thoughts on the matter because I assumed
Kindly, I think this is where you went wrong
That was rather rude I think, why'd you stop talking to him instead of the purpose of communication - learning about other people? Killing conversations because of a difference of opinion - and one where you didn't even explore the reasonings - is why the world is becoming more and more polarised.
While I don't agree about population either way, in my lifetime it's grown from about 3 billion to over 8 billion. This has been quite a ride. Also, there's a world of a difference between global carrying capacity with responsible aliens managing, and our current management.
Why would you stop talking right as the conversation was getting really interesting???
It's the demographic distribution of those 8 billion that's the problem.
I mean, I can certainly appreciate this man's perspective even if I don't agree with it. The global population has more than tripled in his life.
That's a pretty extreme change!
This is me. I learned to not talk to strangers because 80% of the time I just get disappointed. Either I need to reflect my disagreement with their (imo) stupid takes or just be unauthentic and agree.
Yesterday I got stuck with this kind of stranger for 3 hours for work stuff. It was just me and him driving. When he started telling racist jokes and expressed his dissatisfaction with human rights I thought here we go again and went for the unauthentic route. As the conversation rolled he became more easy and personal. Told me about his family, his immigration and less nice parts of his life. I felt compassion and it really feels like we ended up being more connected than the beginning.
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My recently deceased mother had a talent for talking to anyone at any time in any language. She's always been incredibly social and could establish connections with strangers very rapidly. One time she brought in a school teacher/sheep farmer from Dagestan selling yarn from his sheep's wool, she met him at the market and bought all yarn and asked if he had somewhere to stay before going back, and he didn't. He stayed in our house for a couple of nights, and then we visited him in that little village in mountains of Dagestan on a summer vacation, talk about going back a few centuries in time, an incredible and unusual experience.
I've had to spend week and a half battling Gmail daily email account limits sending batches of 500 emails just to notify people in her address book, receiving hundreds of responses. Her memorial was attended by hundreds of people.
It served her very well in her chosen career of real estate sales, although I think she'd might have done really well in community organizing or even politics where those skills are also very useful.
On the flip side, it was sometimes difficult to be there as family wanting some attention, since her bright light was always shining in many directions.
I've inherited just some of that talent, and I think it is a talent, but trainable.
I miss her already.
Condolences for loosing your mother.
It is fascinating to be around such social people. I still remember my great-uncle as a kid. He lived a very simple live as a rural farmer in Germany. He did not have a wife, and he didn‘t have kids, but he had a deep tie to his family and everyone around him. When he passed away during my teens, there were hundreds of people attending his funeral. I was amazed by the impact he must have had on all their lives given they‘ve taken time out of their day to give him a last farewell.
I also notice the generational gap the author of this article highlights. My parents are in their 50s, my brother and I are in our mid 20s.
My parents still have their friends from school, from their apprenticeships and different times of their lives. We can‘t go anywhere in a 100km radius without my dad knowing someone. In school I literally had bus drivers ask me if I am <dad‘s name> son, not because they heard my name, but because we look so much alike.
When looking into my brothers and my life, most of our friends from school left for far away. Things my parents considered normal back in their days, are now considered weird. While my parents still experience an incredibly supportive circle of friends, I would not know who to invite to my hypothetical wedding tomorrow.
Granted, I may be an extreme example. But even when looking more generalized among my peers, most of the friendships we have seem to be significantly more superficial and also fewer than our parents.
> I've had to spend week and a half battling Gmail daily email account limits sending batches of 500 emails just to notify people in her address book, receiving hundreds of responses. Her memorial was attended by hundreds of people.
I love this story, because I had the same experience. When my dad passed, I had the same 500 email limitation, and had to send out multiple waves of emails through Gmail. He was loved by so many people!
I'm sorry for your loss. It sounds like she was a beautiful person, the kind I aspire to be.
Beautiful story, thank you for sharing.
I'm sorry for your loss. Beautiful memorial and portrait you painted though. Thank you for sharing.
Love this. What a rich and fulfilling life that kind of attitude gives
I talk to everyone. My friends and family joke that it’s impossible for me to go anywhere without getting into conversation with someone. I can’t imagine not doing it. Earlier this year I walked down the main shopping street it the part of the large city where I live, with a colleague from out of town.
A few shopkeepers waved through their windows as I went past, the greengrocer came out of his shop to have a quick chat, the dry cleaner asked after my dog, and the guy from the household shop told me they have more of the cleaning paste I use. We bumped into a couple of folk I see every couple of weeks, then got a coffee and I paid the “special” rate rather than the rate on the sign that they charge people they don’t know.
My colleague said - half jokingly - “I didn’t realise you were mayor”, and tried to convince me that I should go into local politics. She couldn’t understand when I said that would take all the pleasure out of it, because talking to people would become transactional rather than joyous.
I can’t imagine not talking to people. A while back I changed the route I take when I walk my dogs each day, and the guy who runs the local fish stall started asking people if I had left the area or died. I don’t buy fish from him each week- but every time I see him stop and we have a chat.
I feel incredibly lucky to be missed by my fishmonger just because I started walking my dogs a different route.
I grew up in a tiny village in the country. The building I live in has hundreds of people living in it, compared to the few dozen houses where I grew up. I think talking to people makes a huge city feel smaller.
I never make any small talk because I feel like I don't have anything to say or ask.
How do you know what to say? How do you make the conversation flow and not end awkwardly?
You can never go wrong with genuinely asking someone how their day is going. If someone doesn't want to talk it's very easy for them to shutdown the conversation and move on. But, I find most of the time people are dying to talk about how good/bad their day is going.
Think of it this way. Everyone's favorite topic is themselves. Give someone an opportunity to talk about themselves and most people will take it. The nuance that takes practice is not peppering the person with questions. Ask, give them time to respond, and then maybe say something from your own day and ask a follow up to something they said. That way you keep them doing most of the talking, but it's not an interrogation.
As for the awkward part, embrace it! I can be super awkward so I just run towards it. "Ending a random convo is always awkward for me, so I'll just say it was nice to chat and maybe chat again sometime." Usually there's a chuckle and done.
What? Where do you live?
I often ask people when I first see them, “ hey how’s it goin’? “
And 99.9% of the time it’s a short “good, u?”
Very much just a hi/hi type oft thing.
A few things I do: I'll point something out, and ask a question. So if I'm in a shop I'll saying something like "I've never seen that before - is it popular?"
If I'm getting a coffee if the barista says "How are you?" Rather than just saying something non-committal I'll say "I'm good thanks, it looks like you're having a busy day/quiet day - has it been like this all day?" or I'll ask a question about the beans (if it's the sort of place they regularly rotate through different beans) or I'll ask what the music that's playing is, or something like that. You can immediately tell if someone wants to continue the conversation. And obviously, if it's busy I won't try to engage them in a longer conversation unless they seem to want to.
If I'm waiting for a bus or a train asking someone "Do you know if this one goes to....{destination}?" is an easy start - obviously, even if you know it does, and you want to talk to someone, it's a good start. And then you can say "Thanks, that's really helpful, I'm going to {destination} so that I can {do a thing}. How about you - are you going anywhere nice today?"
The key thing is knowing whether someone is open to a longer conversation. That's something you can only learn by pushing through the awkwardness of people shutting you down and turning away, or making it clear they don't want to talk.
But when they do, it's almost always very enjoyable, even if it's only a few minutes.
It's amazing the difference you'll find if you go to the same shops/places regularly and make the effort to exchange a genuine human interaction with the people you meet - they remember you, and they make an effort to do things to please you. That's not why I do it, it's a positive consequence.
I think the biggest thing is to have the conversations with people with no agenda. You're not trying to achieve something, you're just exchanging a pleasant interaction with someone, and hopefully you both leave feeling a little more connected to the world.
And always ending by saying something like "Well, it was nice talking to you! See you around!/have a lovely day/something".
If you can leave people feeling like you liked the interaction, you'll gradually feel like the interactions are pleasant.
You don't need something big to say.
And having dogs helps a LOT.
When I encounter people with dogs I always do a smooch sound to the dog and keep going, automatic at this point. Usually where I am they are driving by or in shopping centers. If outdoors I will say hi to owners also but usually just the dogs are greeted.
> if the barista says "How are you?"
Your baristas must be particularly nice ones, bc I've never been asked that by any over here.
It doesn't really matter what you have to say or ask - basically the point of small talk is to express to people "I like you!". Just try to find something to like and the conversation comes (not always, but usually)
> talking to people would become transactional rather than joyous
Only if you let it! I am guessing you would do well, because people can absolutely tell when you are being a smarmy politician and when you're actually a legitimately friendly, decent person.
It’s still tainted though. Even if OP buries that underlying transaction, the other people he is talking to might (like I would) assume OP is bullshitting to placate me and secure my vote.
I’ve got a terrible poker face. People would instantly rumble me. So as soon as I had to talk to someone with politician face it would all go wrong.
I think it depends.
Having the kind of network and connections you do connects you with the actual needs of your community
At which point, it's not necessarily Transactional, but fostering connection and collaboration in order to create win-win situations for everyone in your community.
That's what politicking Should be.
Should be, absolutely. But isn’t where I am. People who go into local politics here seem to be interested in elevating their profile, having influence, or money.
Maybe you can break the cycle?
> She couldn’t understand when I said that would take all the pleasure out of it, because talking to people would become transactional rather than joyous.
It doesn't have to and I suspect that's why your colleague suggested it. Politicians act that way because that's what people want except they don't want someone who is acting.
You have what politicians pretend to have because it makes people like them.
You might be a terrible politician for other reasons but I don't think what you've said is true.
There are plenty of politicians who get into politics precisely because they love interacting with everyone.
It doesn't take the pleasure out of it, it doesn't make it transactional. It just gives them incredible job fulfillment, at least in that part of it.
Bill Clinton was famous for this. It was incredibly frustrating to his staff because he was constantly late for his next event, because he always wanted to keep talking to the people he'd just met. They'd have to build in buffer time to plan around it, because otherwise it wound up disrupting his schedule and logistics too much.
Yeah, especially with the interns.
I'm surprised by all the people saying they dislike transactional talk. Voluntary trades are positive sum by definition, so a good transactional conversation should also be a joyous one.
Hey bud, with all due respect, you’re arguing against who someone believes they are.
Hold on… what do I believe I am?!
Maybe you did this too: I misread the comment you're replying to as
> …you’re arguing against someone who believes they are.
when actually it says
> …you’re arguing against who someone believes they are.
(meaning “you're arguing with someone against who they believe themselves to be” or something like that.)
Oh, you’re right - I did. I was very confused! Thanks for pointing this out.
I would have rather said he was arguing with who you about who you each think you can be. That is different. The question is whether or not you think you can remain a genuine and caring person while being a politician.
Genuinely curious as someone who wants to improve… what the hell do you talk about?
I’m trying to picture the random people I encounter while walking my dog, for example. Neighbors who I don’t know. That’d be a great place to start up a convo as I walk by but I draw a complete blank.
0 skill in this.
The weather? Do some self disclosure? Or make something up? Be silly?
"oh it's such a nice day innit? It's a shame the lizard people won bingo but we'll get them next time eh?"
Be silly, get a laugh, and hopefully things unfold from there. Give a compliment! Or share something you're excited about. Imo Self-disclosure is the simplest route towards spurring conversation.
Think of conversation as a medium through which gifts are given. Through giving gifts, bonds are forged.
There are two basic topics:
1. Talk about them. Start by paying attention to them. Then when you notice something that was clearly an intentional choice on their part, say something nice about it. Listen carefully to what they say, and follow up in response without filtering yourself.
2. Talk about us. Notice some aspect of experience that you are both sharing. The weather is the most popular and safest topic.
It makes me sad that my reaction to this piece is so cynical, but I really think that 90% of the "how" in this article is "be an older British lady". If you're missing that vital piece you'll quickly meet many people who "don't have any money", or just remembered they meant to be walking on the other side of the street, or worse. Talking to strangers when people see you as a threat feels really shitty (for everyone involved) and can be dangerous.
I think you're wrong personally. I'm very far away from being "an older British lady" and agree a lot with the article.
Honestly, in the least combative & confrontational possible, your thoughts there are just an excuse to not reach out and engage with the rest of your world. It's a little sad (not you, the situation itself) because if more people had that same thought, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy with no one talking to each other and those people you allude to being an afraid to talk too for whatever reason become the only people out there talking. We're certainly not there yet and I hope we never get there
I agree that it's a sad state of affairs, and a self-fulfilling prophecy. Maybe I can explain my perspective in a little more detail.
In my typical day at work (teacher), I spend hours talking with dozens of people. A large part of why I chose this work was to escape the isolation that I felt previously when I was doing remote software work. I attend weekly religious services and make an effort to stay for the social hour afterwards. When I go to parties, I don't feel like I have an unusually hard time talking with people. I'm not always as engaged with the world as I'd like, but I don't feel that I'm avoiding it either.
But this article isn't broadly about having conversations with new people: it's about approaching strangers in public settings one-on-one (the article mentions a bus stop, the street, and a mostly empty train carriage), where there's no expectation of social interaction. This is a different situation with its own set of pitfalls. Nobody is going to assume that I'm trying to rob them when I introduce myself at Quaker meeting. No one is going to think I'm a creep for asking a student about their hobbies while I'm at school. We don't see articles about people getting shot for starting up a conversation at a party.
But all of that goes out the window in the settings that the author describes. It's funny, the author mentions feeling like it was "rude and unsafe" to start a chat during the pandemic. I felt like talking to strangers in public got much easier during the pandemic, when people were desperate for any sort of in-person conversation. It's the normal times when this sort of interaction feels rude and unsafe.
Maybe I'm too pessimistic, maybe it would be fine for me to let my guard down a little. I think that loneliness is a huge issue these days and I'm grateful for the efforts people are making (including the author of the article) to address it. But approaching strangers in public in the way the author describes is a special case that is *much* more fraught than other types of social interaction, and is a lot harder for certain people to do successfully. I wish it weren't that way, and maybe it's worth pushing back against, but that doesn't change the current reality. Some people might not feel this way, but they're probably the people for whom it's not true.
This was an interesting perspective, thanks for sharing it. Its all very geographical context dependent I suspect and that's where difference in perspective can be quite different.
One thing though is why you see new people as any different than strangers? I'm not a Quaker or ever attended a quaker meeting (but have always liked the ethos of the vibe) so don't know how that goes. But i've spent time in christian churches in my younger days and even though we were all there for the same reason, those people were still also strangers. Some already had their cliques they'd speak to and catch up with and I'm sure if someone outside that spoke to them the same double take that initially occurs talking to any new person or stranger would still occur there. Some people would want to continue chatting, some people would rather just talk to whoever they were talking to before. But its still fundamentally the same thing as talking to (or attempting to talk to and being shutdown by) someone doing the same thing you are currently doing, whether that's being on a train or sitting at a cafe etc.
At church or during social gatherings in a friend's home, there is a certain set of expectations of behavior which are much more well defined and widely understood than the behavior you can expect from random people traveling though the NYC streets or subway.
There are settings where I'm much more likely to engage in conversation with a random stranger than others, because I know it's far less likely that they will react unpredictably and/or try to scam/hurt me.
Again maybe its a geographical thing since I don't live in NYC, but I have visited several times, so i have narrower perception of this. My view and experience is that its far more likely that engaging with a random stranger that they will either politely ignore you, go on their way than react unpredictably and/or try to scam/hurt you. Similarly, its more likely that they will respond to you (even if its a throwaway reply and thats that) than react unpredictably. A society where those two statements aren't true doesnt exist as it would be complete chaos with no interaction between anyone at all
That's a good point, NYC has its own culture and is less unsafe than some other big cities.
>First, there is no such thing as a [socially] successful person who has never ever creeped anyone out. Give yourself permission to be creepy. I am not saying that you should go around trying to creep people out; of course, if you know something is going to scare someone, you shouldn’t do it; it is best that one avoid becoming Harvey Weinstein. But miscommunications, awkwardness, and misunderstandings happen. Sometimes people make mistakes. You are not going to become Harvey Weinstein by accident. Most people have interacted with someone who has creeped them out at some point, and it does not exactly cause lifelong damage. And while there can be some negative consequences, particularly of creeping people out at work, if you ask [about] a random stranger['s day] at a bookstore or something and they’re creeped out, you know what will happen? Absolutely nothing. The [social] police will not come lock you up for creepiness in the third degree.
Lightly adapted from [1], which is actually the best article online about how to find love and date.
[1] https://thingofthings.wordpress.com/2018/05/25/models-a-summ...
I completely agree with you here, you are being considerate and aware. There are times and places where things are more appropriate and although I do think we can all benefit in lowering our guard and being more brave in having conversations with others. I disagree with the other poster about how every good socially successful person has creeped someone out, I think this is always something we should be considerate about and not just take it as a fact. Conversations involve two people, and we should always be considerate of the other instead of using it transactionally to further our own growth at their expense. I also really dislike the shared source of where their idealogy comes from (alpha male.. yuck). I think you are participating in your community and talking to many people, if you find that you'd like to lower your guard and talk to strangers, I have a strong feeling that what is intuitive to you would be the right thing to do
>Your thoughts there are just an excuse to not reach out and engage with the rest of your world.
My thoughts are formed from personal experience. You get a few experiences and you get the hint.
It's interesting because it's undoubtedly true that bias and prejudice affect one's interactions with the world. At the same time, it's true to that this can contribute to a vicious cycle via self-fulfilling prophecy.
I would say that sometimes you have to make a distinction between truths about the world and beliefs that can be helpful to you personally; sometimes these are in contradiction with each other, so you may find that you have to prefer to fiction to the truth in order to achieve better results.
This seems to be very common and accepted wisdom in the world of sports: a weaker opponent going against a stronger opponent may have virtually no chance of success, but they can marginally improve those chances via "belief."
So be an older British lady? You get to decide how people see you. Hair, clothes, body language, smile, is 90% of how people decide whether they want to interact with you.
When I dye my hair all kinds of colors, random people talk to me (and the specific colors even dictate who talks). When I dress up in a suit, people treat me more seriously. When I dress like a contractor and drive my truck, regular dudes talk to me at gas stations. And when I dress queer, women (and some dudes) smile at me.
I'm not even outgoing personality-wise, which would help more. Personality's the mental equivalent of physical appearance. Think of it like acting: actors pretend to be a certain way, and if it feels genuine, it makes us love or hate them, intrigued or bored. It's a lot more work than changing clothes, but it works no matter what you wear.
I don't think older British lady is in the cards for me but I get your point. One of my friends has a dog (a very cute little yorkie) who I take on walks fairly often. Let me tell you: I get so many people coming up to me wanting to talk when I'm out walking that dog. It's like I'm suddenly transported to a different universe where people are 100x more sociable.
It makes sense: people love dogs. It gives us something in common and is a starting point for conversation. And people with cute dogs seem much less threatening.
But I also kind of resent it. I wish people would want to talk to me when I'm just me.
Don’t feel bad please. There’s a flip side to all these sociable people which you are sensing. It’s the fallacy of “winning friends and influencing people”. Suppose you are sociable and use the tricks to get to know people (take an interest in their interest, ask for favors, etc) the reality is it will almost never be reciprocated. You get a bunch of people to like you but they will never know you because they’re pitiful and shallow. After a while you will resent them and just skip it all.
> You get to decide how people see you. Hair, clothes, body language, smile, is 90% of how people decide whether they want to interact with you.
I see what you're getting at, but also this take kinda annoys me because it falls into the bucket of implying a personal fault. If people don't socialise with you then it must be because you do or don't do X, Y, Z. "Just do X" and you'll become a social butterfly.
Based on my personal experience, I don't know if I buy it. I guess I'm a regular enough guy, but seriously almost never, across my whole life, does someone invoke random socialisation with me. Yet I know people who can't even take the bus without strangers striking up conversations and hassling them, while they are actively trying to be antisocial. What magic trick are these people performing? Can I learn the same trick? What if I don't want to perform it? I think the reality is that for some (many?) people, it just doesn't work out and it's not necessarily due to any particular flaw.
As someone who both experienced phases in life where no one approached me and phases were I get approached regularly, it's a mix of external signifiers and some internal woo stuff that people don't really understand conciously. Or said another way, when someone says you have to "look approachable" what they actually mean is that a) you have to present yourself externally in a way that makes people more likely to engage you (the aforementioned hair, clothes etc.) and b) you have to internally be open to the world (which is what dictates your body language in subtle ways that apparently get picked up). The issue is when someone says something like "have an open body language" is that it's impossible to 24/7 fake a certain type of body language, you actually have to believe it.
If you are naturally a distrusting person people will pick up on it, just how people will pick up if you're naturallly an open person. (The true trick is realizing that "naturally" can be changed)
I do see what you mean but again I'm not sure if I buy it, because it still sounds pretty meritocratic. I have been through times in life with severe social anxiety and times without, and the quantity of approach hasn't really changed. And doesn't explain the people who get approached even when trying to be closed off (I mean just listen to women complain how they're constantly hounded by men no matter what they do).
Also, what about neurodivergent people who may express their openness/closedness somewhat differently? Are they screwed no matter what?
I won't say you can't do anything to influence your approachability, but I really do think there is a very large component which is essentially fixed, and people rarely acknowledge this (which is annoying).
It's not fixed. It's like anything hard that doesn't come naturally. You may wish you were a guitarist, but actually playing guitar well is really hard. You have to work at it, over and over, for months/years. But if you can move your fingers, you can learn to play guitar. It just won't come quickly or easily, and you may decide you'd rather skip it.
As part of a smalltalk training, we had to go out and approach strangers in the public. I entered a tram to try my luck. As soon as as I sat down, someone else started to talk to me, and we had a nice conversation. I didn't even need to break the ice myself. So I can (anecdotally) confirm that people can perceive if you want to connect or rather want to be left alone.
Yeah. That's something I constantly worry about. If I'm in a random scene, most people don't want a large black man approaching them. The calculus completely changes.
That's why I gotta pick my venues. But those venues are shrinking and growing farther apart.
Yes, if you are a black male, it’s hard mode.
I went through a phase where I forced myself to socialise a lot to overcome social awkwardness and anxiety. Was well worth it, both in terms of leveling up my social skills but also in terms of eventually becoming very comfortable with myself.
The main ingredient, at least for me, was being determined enough to push through the discomfort. A lot of the early interactions were awkward, sometimes overtly uncomfortable, but that's an unavoidable part of the learning process (and I took a key lesson from it - it's okay to look like a dork, usually it's only our inner critic that turns it into an immortal sin).
Nowadays I feel a pang of sympathy when I see someone feeling shy or speaking in self-deprecating terms. I remember how that felt, and I remember how easy it would have been to have stayed inside that box for the rest of my life.
Glad I didn't.
I am still at the awkward early interaction stage.
How do you know what to say?, usually I can start the conversation but I don’t know where to take it after. How are you able to shift to the next stage when you have both agreed that the weather today is nice.
How do you get over the feeling that you are wasting their time?
Finally, how do you end the conversation when you're still going in the same direction or waiting at the same place?
> How do you know what to say?, usually I can start the conversation but I don’t know where to take it after. Some ideas: Ask what they’re passionate about. Talk about what you’re passionate about. Say you’re trying to improve yourself and ask if there is anything they’ve learned lately about life that you should know. Ask for their advice/opinion on a recent problem you’ve faced or something that surprised you recently.
>How do you get over the feeling that you are wasting their time? First, hold up a mirror: do you feel your time is wasted when someone talks to you? Second, everyone benefits from bonds and talking enables trust. Even if the relationship is temporary, it brings comfort. Think of two people at an airport going out on different planes. Even a short conversation with someone makes them trust enough to let the other watch their heavy luggage while they go to the bathroom.
>Finally, how do you end the conversation when you're still going in the same direction or waiting at the same place? Yeah, this is always a little awkward. You can just say something like “It’s been nice talking to you. I’m going to go back to reading my book.” Sometimes I’ll make a polite fib like saying I’ve got to think about an important presentation or have some pressing emails that I need to read.
You've created problems that don't exist. They're concerns that most people don't have.
You don't know what to say. That's fine.
You might be wasting their time. That's fine.
You might not know how to end the conversation. That's fine.
It's ok to be awkward. It's ok to be honest. It's ok to bother people as long as you take their feedback appropriately. It's ok to walk away without saying anything.
The more often that you talk to people and actively reflect on the REAL outcomes of it, the sooner you'll realize those concerns aren't shared by most other people.
"You don't know what to say. That's fine."
Well if I don't know what to say, I either don't start a conversation or I can use some opener like "How are you?" and then end the conversation (because I don't know what to say). But then what is the point?
That's fine.
:)
Myself, I tend to ask with open question, a good ice breaker is: "Hey mate, hows your day going on a scale of 1-10?"
That gives them a chance to take a break and think. If they say three, you put yourself in their shoes. "Hey, that sucks. what's going on?" just lending a warm comforting subtle "I'm around right now if you want to talk"
If they give you a higher number, inquire why. "Wow, a 7? That's great. How come?" Both results in giving them option to speak. You compliment in both situations, a win win. If they return with a single closing statement acknowledge it and move on, "all the best".
If you need to end, a simple of "hey, it was great talking. I've got my coffee it was a pleasure talking to you while I waited, I've got to take off but it was a pleasure to talk".
You cater it to the situation you're in. If they want to talk then they will, if they don't then they won't.
Those forced conversations have a shelf-life because they’re artificial.
Note, rather, how friends converse and how little scripting is involved. When two good friends meet they don’t say their profession, or academic rank, or ask interrogatory questions. They exchange enthusiasm for each others presence and the conversation tends towards exchanges of perspective/experience and reflection thereof. Statement, vibes, counter-statement(?), more vibes.
That kind of familiar, friendly, approach to conversation is always available and short circuits the scripts. It efficiently probes for people who want to talk and what they want to talk about. It also tends to involve a lot of dumb-yet-charming assertions about the current situation, which takes awareness not planning. A ‘sense’ of humour, not a tight 5 locked and loaded. “Fuck, now that’s a lineup…” isn’t a refined piece of social engineering, but it’s a serviceable conversation starter and the least important part if you’re still talking three hours later.
I came to think of it like skilling up at a game. For instance the one I'm most familiar with, Counterstrike. When you first play Counterstrike you're clueless - you don't know where to aim, you don't know how to control the guns, it's a mess. How do you fix that? Practice. Lots of practice.
So if you don't know what to say, the basic answer is to keep practicing. Your subconscious will eventually figure it out. (Edit: by practice I mean live practice with real people in the world - not on your own in your own head)
As for myself, here's the place I came to: I be myself and I say what I want to say, and for social calibration I rely on my subconscious.
I also let go of trying to control the outcome. The questions you're asking rest atop of wanting the social encounter to go a certain way - you want it to be "successful". Let go of that expectation and just let it organically be whatever it is - that is, take your hands off the driving wheel a bit.
The final bit is a confidence thing - feeling good about yourself, feeling that you have value (your bit about wasting other people's time hints that you somehow feel low on yourself). For that it's the Mike Tyson quote - "success begets confidence and confidence begets success". For me there was a feedback loop where the practice started to feed into social success - people enjoying my company, successful dates with women, and so on.
That final part's a very important ingredient as your subconscious needs the markers of success to latch onto as positive feedback signals on "what works". So basically you have to keep pushing and practicing until you reach the point where you get dividends. As for how long it takes to get there, it varies by individual - some are quick learners, some are slow, some have less handicaps, some have more.
But in principle I believe that most people can learn to be charming and good company.
Honestly, it doesn't really matter what you say. It's mostly about body language and not seeming like a threat (smile). You can talk about whatever. Tell them about a movie you just saw and ask them about recommendations. Ask them for restaurant or dinner suggestions. Tell them about that article you just read which you found intereting.
If they are open to small talk, they will drop some tidbits that you can spring off on. Conversation is a two way street. If they don't seem interested in keeping the conversation going, tell them to have a nice day and carry on with yours.
I find myself wondering about these exact questions from time to time.
I usually avoid strangers, because those who talk to you are usually weirdos.
Thing is, if normal people don't talk to strangers anymore, then only the weirdos are left, reinforcing the idea that only weirdos talk to strangers...
+1 In any major city it's probably 90% chance they're either a crook trying to scam you out of something or mentally not quite right. The remaining 10% will be tourists or people from outside of the major city.
You're confusing "asking people for something" with "talking to people."
Nobody wants randos coming up to them and asking for something.
Most people would be less lonely if everyone had more practice at making non-transactional conversation.
Actively avoiding conversation still qualifies as "weirdo" behavior to most people.
"Someday - and that day may never come" - they will be asking for something. Now you are on talking terms and it will be harder to refuse the ask, compared to the request of a complete stranger.
On public transit or a street, maybe. But only maybe.
Are you willfully ignoring people at bars, night clubs, supermarkets, etc?
It's obvious 99% of the time whether or not the conversation is in the wrong place and wrong time.
bars and clubs are specific venues for social interactions.
Supermarkets are a toss up. Most people are there to get their food and get out.
This is sad but not inconsistent with my experience. Though I think 10% is actually the people who genuinely want to have a nice conversation. and I think that worth putting up witrh the rest 90% for.
In my experience that's not true at all, but I think a lot of people have that perception, which is sad.
Or they have social skills?
I understand what both of you are saying, I lived in areas where if someone is talking to you on the street theres a high chance theyre asking you for something, so you learn to just kinda block all of it out. Now that I moved to a smaller town, I find myself talking to strangers much more frequently.
If they cone accross as mwntally ill, they dont have social skill. Per definition.
Scamming crools frequently do have good social skills, but of course there is that risk of being scammed if you talk to them.
this. it's alarming how many takes ITT are detached from reality.
In my experience, only weirdos never speak to strangers. Social skills are easy, conversations are easy and strangers are just people you don’t know yet.
I still can’t understand the point of this. Do you get a charge telling social anxious people they’ll be weird if they do their homework? That’s precisely what you did. Why?
I live in NYC. Maybe this is different in the suburbs. Nearly 100% of the people that approach me are trying to get something from me. Scam me, get me to sign something I don't want to sign, get me to donate my money to save the dogs/children/etc.
If someone on the street tries to talk to me, I try to avoid even looking at them or acknowledging them. They'll use that as an opening. Just keep walking.
I lived in NYC for a decade. This is very true on the street, but less true waiting in a subway station, and even less true in a neighborhood bar. The more public, there is a “market for lemons” effect in conversation. The more it resembles a private club or a group suffering a common injustice, the more reliably good the conversation is. A crowd on an MTA platform where a train hasn’t shown up in 50 minutes can get pretty chatty.
Well, that's your experience. Some people live in places where most strangers that talk to you are wierdos. Some of us live in places where most strangers on the street are actually dangerous (and I'm not talking about NYC or any place in America, I'm talking about actual criminal hotspots, which is the reality of a huge portion of humanity you probably don't think about).
One of the best pieces of advice I can give, something that has helped me start talking more with strangers, is this:
When I’m speaking to someone in a service role, like a waiter, a cashier, or a salesperson, I remind myself that I’m just one of hundreds of people they interact with that day. To them, I’m simply another brief interaction. So if I say something awkward or if the conversation doesn’t flow perfectly, it’s not a big deal. It’s probably just one small, forgettable moment in a long series of conversations they will have that day.
Thinking about it that way helps me relax and not put so much pressure on myself. At the same time, some of the most meaningful or unexpected opportunities can come from simple conversations with strangers. You never really know what a small interaction might lead to, whether it is a new connection, a new perspective, or even an open door you did not see before.
One tip for the introverts out there:
When the service worker and you do the back and forth of "How are you doing today" - "Fine, you?" - "Fine"
Yeah don't do that, try out this phrase "It's my Monday" [0] instead of "Fine, you?"
You'll typically have them telling you what day of their work week they are in which is not usually the actual day of the week! Because managers schedule people in service positions in wacky ways.
That little bit of human connection around labor and work, man it does wonders. They know you know what it's like, that you see them as a person, and you care a little bit. Really gets the conversation going if there isn't too much of a line.
[0] Use any day of the week, but do use a weekday. Monday or Friday works best though.
My kids make fun of me because I know the shopkeepers around me by first name, along with the details of their businesses , and that shopping takes forever because I talk to everyone, customers included.
I just love it, it’s easy and I get a lot in return - from perks to incredible encounters. At work it’s been very helpful.
I developed that skill while traveling alone for a year , and it boils down to practicing and reading whether the person you’re talking to is ok with your talking or not.
In any case, it makes me immensely happy.
This is absolutely my experience.
And now because I know them I go there because I can buy my stuff but also spend five minutes chatting and that makes going grocery shopping a real joy. And because I go there and chat they do nice things like give me a couple of tomatoes or “you’ve got to try this cake” or the wine shop where I automatically get a 15% discount, or the butcher where they let me in when are already closed but they know I’ve come over specially.
And some of those people have become real friends, like go and have dinner together friends. We have very different lives but we get on because we get on. I think everyone benefits from reaching out of their bubble a bit.
If I’m feeling a bit glum I’ll go out to buy bread or something because I know just seeing the people I see regularly will lift me up.
It's interesting, because while having that skill is helpful I think part of the issue a lot of people have is an overturned sense for it - they will be worried they are getting judged for wasting their counterparts time.
It's good to have, but don't let not having it (yet) stop you!
It is a hard skill, but I do recommend it. I have always struggled with initiating a conversation with a stranger, but 99 times out of 100 it has turned out well. My teenage daughter just stands there agape when I do it, she is still struggling even to speak up to the cashier taking her fast food order. I keep telling her that it makes me pretty nervous too, but it is so worth taking the little leap.
I had a long conversation with a fellow parent sitting next to me at soccer practice today. Never met her before in my life, but we just started chatting about soccer logistics, and then I just started asking her about her life. I learned about her 5 kids, her tough relationship situation with her spouse of 16 years, her having moved here from Arkansas as a child, her feelings about how gentrification damaging local communities, her dream of moving out of the USA to another country, how there are the same kinds of social problems most places, how we can come to empathize more with our parents as we get older, and probably more things too I'm not remembering. These are the kinds of things you can talk about if you happen to have good rapport with someone and they feel like it...
I won't say I have conversations with strangers like that all the time, but it is 100% possible, and a lot of people really do appreciate it if you bother to talk to them. People often like being asked about themselves (I used to do cultural anthropology research so I have had quite a bit of practice too...).
There are of course reasons why it doesn't always work or becomes awkward. For example, gender is a factor - a significant part of the population is much more comfortable having same-sex conversations with strangers - not to mention other sociological factors around race, class, nationality, all the obvious things.
We are living in a dictatorship of extroverts, who go out of their way (what a suprprise) to tell us that their ways are obviously better.
I'm not an extrovert. Introversion itself was probably more of a euphemism that I used to rationalize something closer to social anxiety.
But I feel I'm better off now for doing what the article suggested, over the last 5-6 years. Doing so improved my knowledge, my empathy, grew my revenue, built larger professional networks, introduced me to hobby networks, and helped with better financial planning.
I even changed to the extent of actually looking forward to outreach activities that involve a lot of conversations. I find them very satisfying because they help me understand social realities and people better than social media and books and help me develop empathy.
I wouldn't say I'm now an extrovert. My personality still prefers a lot of alone time. There are times when I still don't feel like talking to anyone. But they're now for positive reasons like books to finish rather than negative reasons like social anxiety.
I now tend to see things like introversion and social anxiety as obstacles. One can rationalize them in many ways but they'll remain objective obstacles IMO.
Thank you for proving my point - for some reason you felt you have to explain how introversion is an „objective obstacle”.
Welcome, but your point hasn't been proved at all actually. Your point was that this sort of stuff is imposed upon you by a "dictatorship of extroverts."
But I'm not an extrovert and not supportive of a dictatorship of extroverts. For example, I'm not a fan of imposed socializing of office coworkers outside the office in order to fit in.
Regarding "for some reason," it's quite obvious - you made a mistaken assumption and that's the only reason I came here to gave a counter example and a counter view to your wrong assumption. I wouldn't have written any of this as a top comment.
A dictatorship? Are you being forced at gunpoint to talk to people?
Perhaps more unsurprisingly, at the mere suggestion that socializing is good for you (it demonstrably is https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11403199/), you went and wrote a comment that I can only imagine someone who is deeply unhappy would write.
That is not a kind judgment. While I hesitate at the word “dictatorship” it is fair to say that society puts more value on extrovert interaction than introvert contemplation, and it does this because extroverts dominate the social conversation.
the dictatorship is doing extremely badly then because in my experience roughly the last two decades have consisted of safety obsession, various 'cozy' aesthetics that don't involve leaving your house, the death of social drinking and an uptick of pills and psychological diagnoses and people staring into their phones on every occasion.
We've completely normalized being a shut-in to the point where your take, that it's authoritarian to push people out into the world and engage others, is quite common. What now passes for 'extroverted' used to be known as the human condition. Even extroverts today probably have fewer friends, smaller families and spend more time isolated and on screens than 99% of humanity.
I can't agree. I'm pretty sure that we're in dictatorship of introverts that convinced everyone that talking or even eye contact with strangers is creep.
"Reduce human contact to bare minimum" is standard now, at least in America.
It's really tiresome. I am happy to have to a conversation if approached, but don't tell me I "should" do the same to others
I had a recent encounter with a guy in a coffee shop who approached me and wanted to discuss recent sportsball games in great detail. I had no idea what he was talking about, I don't even know the local teams, after living here 30 years. He had no other topics.
I had a friend like that. Soccer soccer soccer. His soccer knowledge was impeccable. But he allowed almost no space in his life for anything else. A kind of addiction. He had no other interests, didn't read about anything else.
There's only so mach a person can take being on the other side of someone like that. We drifted apart...
Yeah, that's issue #2 or 3 with me. My life has pretty much been minmaxed to be the stereotypical nerd. I don't have much "small talk" topics to approach with.
I want to change that too, but that involves time for hobbies instead of job searching and worrying about debt.
I abhor small talk. It's physically painful. I've heard that's often true of some cultures, especially northern europeans.
I think the trick to converse on a more engaging level is to introduce conversation that invites deeper thought. Somehow you need to intrigue the other person. Compel them through curiosity to leave their comfort zone and join you where you'd prefer to be.
IMO, even disagreement can be agreeable if it's not confrontational, if you genuinely express curiosity to learn what they think, what they care about.
I've been subconsciously doing this forever and after hundreds if no thousands of interaction have lately been assessing its outcome as more neutral than the article frames it. On the long run while mildly pleasant, you realise how shallow these conversations are and they have not brought anything valuable to your life. Maybe stopping for a while would lead to further realisation but I don't think so.
The most positive effect it has had on me is to make me enjoy even more deep conversations with my friends.
One of my best stranger conversations talking to a “Big Issue” [1] seller outside a supermarket. As I understand, they’re (close to) homeless usually.
When I asked about him, he mentioned he’s Irish but moved on to tell me about his plans. How he was saving to have a farm, planned what to grow, animals - 15m of quite precise description. His story was his future.
This was striking for me - when asked most people tell you about their past, where they’re coming from. It was the first time I realised that where we’re going should be a bigger part of our story and identity.
I try to keep that conversation in mind as a lesson, and as a reminder to talk to people around.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Issue
I've had some great conversations with random strangers on public transport and in shops etc. Oddly I'm a complete introvert with quite bad social anxiety and avoid social events like work parties etc. But I like talking to strangers I'll never see again. I think it's partly because I'm not trying to make an impression and I'm not there just to socialise. So it's a bit crap for me that people are withdrawing and not engaging in random chit chat as much. It's so easy to be lonely these days.
> "As we walked home, my 15-year-old son asked: “Is it OK to talk to people in that way?” “What way?” He was asking about the boundaries when it comes to talking to someone about their home country."
My 13 year old is the opposite. He is always telling me that I talk too much to "strangers" and that "people don't to that". I'm assuming he means his peers.
I've had to force myself to be more social in some instances in order to set an example, specifically for my niece who has/had quite a bit of social anxiety. Being a regular at the local Friday night rollerskating, I got to know quite a few of the other regulars, including younger ones my niece's age, and was able to kind of slowly break down the social anxiety barrier such that my niece is now part of this group of (now) late teens / early 20's "kids" and their social group just seems to keep growing. Seeing my niece able to be comfortably herself with these peers just makes me feel good in the small part I was able to play.
People, in most part, are good. Some are really quite lovely such that it reminds me of Bilbo's birthday speech:
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve"
I'm happy to see that in a sea of commenters who'd hate for anyone to strike a conversation with them, there are people who still enjoy connecting with others.
We are in a public forum afterall and we are all strangers here. I'm always happy when random person sends me an email.
It's indeed pretty interesting how our society has normalized being. what I would say is antisocial by the norms of previous generations in the form of the gen z stare. Funnilly I remember a situation where I got a job offer from somebody from an older generation and I just stood still and stared for 1 minute. Not because I wanted to be disrespectful but because I was processing the information and I was simply so baffled that I forgot the social dance of showing the thinking on my face and doing thinking sounds (if you know you know). This led to the other person holding a lecture on how you should respond that you do not have a response yet but I thinking. I ended up accepting.
As someone who has struggled with social anxiety over the years and has thought about this a lot, I have some thoughts.
It's all nice to imagine everyone talking to each other, but the reality is that in (western?) society, we have kinda collectively decided that socialisation is to be avoided. Either it's too weird, too boring, or too unsafe. I mean have you tried randomly talking to people? Most don't seem very open to it.
Also it doesn't help that the little "pretext" scenarios that can lead to socialising are being systematically eliminated from our lives.
And finally, if you're neurodivergent or otherwise aren't perfectly typical, enjoy people thinking you're weird anyway.
Yes, there is a pervasive anxiety around strangers and impromptu socializing among younger millennials and Gen Z particularly in North America and parts of Europe, and across age groups in certain subcultures. There are lots of causes for this, but this phenomenon is neither as entrenched nor as universal as you might think and the dangers are basically infinitesimal (zero for all intents and purposes). If you are respectful and mindful of how you engage, the overwhelming majority of people will at worst ignore you. Which sucks, yes, but more than likely they won't even do that, i.e. they'll probably reciprocate
I agree re the pretext scenarios disappearing and re neurodivergence adding extra challenges.
RE the former: there are lots more of these pretext scenarios than you might realize
RE the latter, I realize it's not your point but for what it's worth, you won't really be able to tell in most cases that someone on the street or wherever is or isn't nd. Meaning: there's a good chance that the person you are talking to is nd themselves. Lots of us are pros at masking
In general though i would say to be careful when generalizing about human behavior in a way that causes you to implement and enforce rules / limitations on your own behavior in response. This is unavoidable, right? And yes, there's often an nd component to this. But especially as you get older, these can start to calcify and limit you in increasingly destructive ways
I've always done this. Used to drive my mom nuts at the grocery store just asking people random shit about the stuff they're buying. Have lived all over the US in various downtowns. You can learn so much about a city, what's actually good there, just by asking everyone you can.
Unsure of what a lot of people in this thread are talking about, they have been misled into believing some very antisocial things and do not seem pleasant. Perhaps it is best they stay inside and do not talk to anyone.
I am not an old british lady or a 7ft tall underwear model / pro athlete, I'm just some dude. The closest thing to a change I've experienced is having to be more proactive about smiling or demonstrating that I am not what others have very legitimate cause to fear as of recent. That sucks a lot and makes me quite sad.
Not saying bad things don't happen, but I've certainly never worried about violence up until recently. Unspoken social contracts are being broken by people who have not considered the consequences, my heart breaks for them and what will have to happen next.
The world is much smaller than you realize. If 90% of everyone was crooks or criminals, you would not be posting that shit right now, because you would not be alive. They don't do that because it's bad for business. A lot of what is happening right now is predicated on the concept of there being some amount of business that is okay to lose in exchange for... problematic ideals. Business will win
I don't talk to everyone, on the other side I talk to almost nobody. But I am ready to speak with anyone if they reach me. I have so much experience/knowledge (professional, social, philosophical) that I can support discussions about anything under any occasion. But outside my family and non-sense chat with 3-4 friends I see hardly any interest. Being in this forum provides all new social contact and it's enough for now.
I find the decay of human connections an interesting problem to solve. I used to have an app that encouraged meeting in person by utilizing friends inviting other friends[0]. This solved many app-problems like correct matching and safety.
Didn't catch on, though. Setting up events turned out to be too prohibitive. If this interests anyone feel free to contact me at contact [at] eventful [dot] is
[0] https://blog.eventful.is/p/the-perfect-dating-app
> Talking with strangers is surprisingly informative
I think this should be a key point here, for people motivated by curiosity. I don't seek out conversations with strangers, but when they happen I lean heavily into this aspect.
My pro-tip for talking to strangers is to talk about them; ask where they're from, what they do, how their job works, and so on... They are usually more than happy to carry the conversation, they feel like they're being appreciated for being interesting, and you learn so much.
As a throwaway example, I found out from someone at a bar that composing music specifically for movie trailers is a business in itself, and the creators do not even know what movie or what trailer their music will be used for. They get direction, they deliver the music, and usually only find out when the trailer is released. Isn't that interesting?
And if they ask about you, even easier, you get to feel interesting instead!
I was always very uncomfortable socializing growing up and still am, but just like with anything, it gets easier with practice. (Alcohol helps too, if that's an option!)
I've talked to random people.
Most of them are unbearably boring, and they need to resort to alcohol and professional sports just to have anything to talk about in the first place.
Bring up ECDSA and suddenly you may as well have just beamed down from a spaceship.
Yeah... it's difficult enough to find engaging conversations with people I do know. If you want to talk for the sake of talking, there won't be a shortage of possibilities. And if you are sociable enough, people will do so.
But outside of these parameters? It's very slim picking.
This is the funniest thing I have heard all day today thank you for this.
Lol is this why you have thought about mentioning it? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47214367
Talk about Poe's law.
I know what ECDSA is and if you brought it up in a random conversation unprompted I'd try to find your spaceship so I could escape the conversation on it.
Would making it less random works? Like declaring your preferred topic or at least screen your audience based on their drinking habits.
Glad to see this here. Age-wise I'm in the oldest 10% of users here, maybe 5%. I have noticed over the years the eroding of the ability of young people (20s basically) to interact in what I consider normal social situations.
Talking to your fellow humans in all sorts of situations is how you can form actual knowledge within yourself derived from direct observation. Everything else is a filter and synthesis. How can you know "reality" if you don't interact with it directly?
I'm 39 myself but it's disturbing how you don't even see kids playing out in the street nowadays - a lot of them are indoors on ipads and the like. I knew all the kids on my block and it was regular to ring each other's doorbells so we could go out and play, which is basically early social skills.
I find the community on Clubhouse understand this better than anyone (well, this is true for Reddit and HN too). Clubhouse especially though because people are bat shit crazy on there and somehow conversations happen. It’s a hidden gem that I think the HN community would enjoy.
I haven't heard of Clubhouse being mentioned in a long time. Last time I checked, it didn't gain traction after 2021 and never heard of the app being mentioned since then.
Are there people still using the app? If so how are they making money?
Clubhouse is still around?!
That the copyright notice on their site still says "2025" probably says a lot. I was kinda expecting to find an AI pivot when I opened that landing page.
For what it’s worth, they are living a AI pivot. TOS just changed so they keep transcripts of all voice and actually pop it into an LLM to subjectively determine your karma points. They are absolutely selling audio data for fine tuning purposes imho, and they are absolutely training on all audio. It’s a AI shovel selling company for sure.
And people wonder why others say we are living in a "low trust society". You can only read a story like this so many times before you decide to simply opt out of society.
Don't let tech companies set your view of people in general.
Yes, it’s niche like Slashdot it seems. Good fun, might be worth making an HN room.
you cannot sign up without sharing your contact list (lol)
It’s a dark pattern. You have to check the box and then click “Don’t allow”. You do not need to share contact or real name or anything.
It’s a good app, I’m not saying the people that run it are good lol.
What is also fun is to just say 'hi' or 'hello' to random strangers, accompanied by a smile. I usually do that on the sidewalk (western Europe), but other places might also be fair game. I made an active effort to just greet people, now it's a habit. In the beginning I felt rejected sometimes by people blankly staring back at me and not saying 'hi' back.
Some people are not into that, don't suspect it or don't know how to handle that. Like half of this comment section, I really read some cringe comments here about how people don't want to be talked to. To them I can only say: don't worry, I see/feel from miles away that you don't want to be talked to. And even then, I might say 'hi' to you, just to gauge what happens. ;)
For me, it's okay if people don't say anything back. That's not even the point. I want to share a little positivity with the world (when I'm in the mood) and 90% of reactions are either a big smile back, a little nod or even a small conversation. There's nothing for me to 'win' (as a lot of commenters seem to think is the point); thinking in these terms makes it a business transaction.
I found out that especially elderly people are way more open to these things. Also, people who don't seem open to it (probably going through a bad time) might actually surprise you with a warm and welcome smile. These little interactions taught me to not judge a book by it's cover, give a little without expecting anything in return, and just knowing that you made somebody smile who needed that.
So if you think this article is something you want to try, but you're a little afraid thinking about whole conversations and stuff, just start with greeting random people. Don't see it as a transaction, just see it as age old human behavior (which it is). If you have a hard time reading social clues, this also might be a good way to practice that a bit.
I wonder if some of this also has to do with the culture of where you live, because it can go wrong. It reminds me of a BBC comedy skit about someone doing exactly this:
Northerner terrifies Londoners by saying "Hello": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT0ay9u1gg4
I like the sentiment behind what you've said, and I think you're especially right about elderly people (probably because they don't get much social interaction). I actually had an elderly woman come up to me this week to tell me I was standing in the wrong place for the bus stop - but it was sad that she had to begin by saying "Excuse me, I'm sorry to interrupt, and you can tell me if this is none of my business and that you want me to go rack off... but I don't think the bus will stop here." I tried to be very kind and thankful with my response, because that's obviously someone who has been burned by trying to be social & helpful, and met with aggression in response before.
I speak to everyone when in "work mode". Its part of the job. I smalltalk, im curious, i listen. When off work I dont really want to talk to people at all (outside "my" people, i.e. my family and small group of friends). If someone strikes up a conversation I will of course engage, but I reach a threshold where I run out of gas and have to excuse myself.
I'm the same - work persona is curious, engaged, loves to talk to new people. Off work sometimes this bleeds over, but generally I retreat to my more comfortable introverted self.
It's a valuable skill, so I do sometimes practice trying to adopt the work persona at home, but it really doesn't come naturally.
One thing I've done to improve my communication with strangers is to stop trying to think of the perfect way to start a conversation or question.
Some of the best conversations I've had started by me asking or telling someone something in a awkward or overly simplified way at first. It takes the pressure off of both of you and a more natural conversation takes place as you both work to get on the same page, which takes time and leads to more conversation.
In the past I'd think of the perfect sentence with little nuances and edge cases covered in that sentence to what I was trying to convey, which would result in no real conversation to even take place.
Of course you will run into people who are unfriendly and won't receive this well but overall it's lead to more pleasant and natural conversations.
I agree that expanding communication with strangers is important. But starting with "Do you mind if I sit here? Or did you want to be alone with your thoughts?" and then continuing a conversation for 10+ minutes is a real struggle for me. Sometimes I even wonder—how exactly does this kind of individual conversation actually help me? Maybe this is just me.
Yeah it'll be hard. But with a lot of practice it'll get easier. I think part of the practice is recognizing "they don't want me to continue this conversation" and bailing, vs trying to force every interaction to be a deeper conversation.
I never practiced "idle conversation with a complete stranger" like that because I was lazy. But I did practice making normal, non-sexual, conversation with women on dating sites and dates so that I could go from "isolated in school, then after going online, low response rate and never more than 1 or 2 dates" to someone in a long-term relationship. And recognizing that sort of "ok there's just not any interest here, move along" signal was definitely relevant there too.
Skills take investment.
My parents didn't give me nearly as many opportunities to practice these skills as they had when they grew up, and pop culture actively encouraged me not to talk to strangers as a kid, so I had to work harder at them as an adult. But it was worth it.
Is it a matter of skill, or a matter of courage?
It's a matter of priveledge. Many people don't have time to try and make new connections
>how exactly does this kind of individual conversation actually help me?
It doesn't. It just helps the speaker.
That makes me think—why do I enjoy conversations with friends then? What's really the difference between a friend and a stranger? Friends annoy me too, maybe even more often than strangers do.
Your friends are hopefully somewhat invested in you for a non-transactional reason, and have proven to be a non-threat. There's no guarantees with a stranger.
What a bizarre perspective. Have you never gotten any personal value out of a single conversation in your entire life? Have you never made a friend? I don't understand this "all conversations are bad and useless" nonsense. What on earth do you think you're doing on social media?
I'm not saying that all conversations are bad. I'm just talking about the one hour one-sided conversations described in the article.
One of the basic rules of starting conversations with other people is letting the other person do most of the talking. People like talking about themselves. So the old lady in the article violated that rule. That isn't to say that just talking to people instead of actually talking with them will never work. You might be lucky and the person you talk to just happens to be very interested in what you want to tell them, but it is rather unlikely.
Once you have shown that you are interested in someone by listening to them and thereby learning about them, you might sometimes find that they might also be interested in something you can share with them. The easiest way to get someone interested in you is to first get interested in them.
It's a pretty simple principle, but since people like to talk about themselves they often do not follow it.
Also, one thing not mentioned in the article is that, structurally, some of this is a consequence of a growing sense that we live in a low trust society. I don't necessarily think that is true in the small/local sense for many people, but a lot of the media we consume and talk about highlights that so much of society is untrustworthy and that forces many people to close themselves up as a completely rational way of protecting themselves.
I hope more and more people do not continue to believe that, there is so much good out there in the world and we all have to engage it or we're just letting the low trust side win and life becomes a lot less because of that. Everyone already into chatting for chatting sake now and then, please continue to do so. You're doing a world a huge service. The rest not, come join us, the water feels great!
Low trust is easier to sell for, to try to fill in the hole you might have without enough meaningful social interactions; it's easier to market when you don't have anyone in your close circle to talk you out of spending money unnecessarily. It's easier to manipulate when you don't have enough contacts with others to band together against a common enemy.
The dangers of daily life, while real in some way, have been over-represented in the media, and now we're given the tools to completely avoid them. Whether on purpose or not (bad news sell much better than good news, after all), these are the consequences we're just seeing.
>some of this is a consequence of a growing sense that we live in a low trust society.
Exactly. YMMV but that is 100% true in many urban areas. Too many people leads to less meaningful connections. I imagine much of this community lies in those urban hotspots.
>I hope more and more people do not continue to believe that
it's going to continue. Low trust societies are a structural issue, and I see little initiative to fix it. People constantly need to move around due to rising costs of living, there's no commmunity hubs, third places, frequently meeting clubs, etc. to build such community. Work hours are creeping up while compensation and stability is going down. Where would you find the time to meet up?
It's all an economic issue at the end of the day. There's a part of the equation where we don't "need" to work with as many people anymore to get by. But for he most part, it's very similar to the walk-ability issue in the US. There won't be some mass change all at once, but people take cues and change heir habits around heir environment.
For my environment, I'm a night owl and everything in my town is closed by 8pm or so. I don't like the loud environments of bars. So there's nowhere for me to really go.
I hope you're wrong and I think you're being a little defeatist in the assessment of "Little initiative to fix it". But to each is own. From the communities have stayed in, in different places around the world, I find that is not the case and there is still a high trust society in place locally. It's everywhere else outside that that people tend to view as low trust. I always end up thinking to myself that but there's no true way to actually know that everywhere else is low trust when you're not actually there, they're just fighting shadows.
A very particular case is London, which if you live on the internet you would think is some sort of hellscape where everyone is going to stab you or steal your phone on a bike if you dont run between safe spot to safe spot with eyes on your bike. But I've lived there for many years, still have friends there and visit regularly and that is so far from daily life that it is bizarrely amusing that people think that
ok it's a bit late but i think a big part is the non-verbal thing you're putting out.
my story is me and my wife moved to another country a few years ago for my study. after 4 months moving there, she already know and conversed with the people working the apartment and some neighbors. while i mostly just exchanged cursories and nods and glances. then one day we just walked out together and the same people i passed earlier just says hello and converse and stuff with my wife and me. yes she's very much an extrovert but i can see people are way 'more open' and my wife has that too. me on the other hand do have 'i don't want to bother you so please don't bother me' vibe.
I was at a conference recently and I went to a meetup session that the organizers put through and I was so anxious that I took a lapel pin and left immediately :( I knew about my social anxiety but never saw it first hand as such. I am so bad in networking with people.
I'm sorry you had that experience, I know that feeling and it sucks.
One thing I love about socials at conferences is that it's a self selecting group of people who want to talk to other people, otherwise they wouldn't be there. Even if people are shy and awkward they are in that room because they want to be social, even if they aren't able to start the conversation themselves. There's also usually a code of conduct for the conference so you have a better chance of people behaving in an acceptable way towards you, which makes the whole thing feel less risky. Over the last 10 years I've gotten much better at talking to people at these events and now quite enjoy them.
That being said I still find it really hard to walk up to a group of strangers and say hi, but in this setting it's way more socially acceptable, so I force myself to do it. I much prefer to be invited into conversation by another person, which does happen occasionally. But sometimes you have to be the one to start.
The only time I've found it go negatively is when you chat with a group of people who all work together, especially if they are remote, because they may be using the conference social to bond with their colleagues and not some random person. But that's their problem, and you should just watch for that scenario and move on to another group.
I had a colleague (now friend :D) whose dad was a manager for a company, he taught him to talk to anyone so he's got a number of conversation starters / makers. I mean I (think I) can tell it's a very active intellectual process for him, like it's not natural and he's analysing responses and storing them and the like constantly, but he's doing it and it makes him a great asset. I don't think he aspires any leadership positions - conversations cost him energy and he likes to write code, after all - but he has the techniques for it.
A tip from a past life working a customer service / food service job:
Learn a few words in a variety of languages. They are great conversation starters / expanders – I made a lot of actual friendships by talking to people (after taking their orders), asking them where they’re from, and then knowing a few words in their language. Nothing makes people happier than hearing someone speak their native language, no matter how poorly.
This was in a university town, so knowing a couple words in Chinese, Arabic, Hindi, etc. was useful.
Learning basic Levantine Arabic has brought me more smiles and free meals than I can count. It's been deeply healing in challenging the negative narratives surrounding these very warm people.
I used to avoid talking to people because it always turns out to be an argument
Later I realized this is wrong on my part, talking is all about talking, let the vibe continue and don't let it die.
The only way to win an argument is to avoid it.
Also let the other person do most of the talking.
I have autism so talking with people can get difficult as we have different communication styles and message decoding systems.
Even when people seem nice I generally keep a distance as I have to analyse them slowly instead of relying on social cues. I do pick up cues but processing them is not subconscious. My subconscious is not as generative and acts more like a buffer for conversation, so all the talking I do subconsciously has to be placed there beforehand instead of generating it with subconscious heuristics.
Did anyone notice how the last paragraph links to a paid course on talking to strangers… paid advertising??
Mutually beneficial. The publication gets an article people might want to read and the author gets free publicity. Happens all the time.
And that's the moral of the story: 99% of anything "free" these days are transactional.
or how to get labeled as a creep by every women
joke or not (actually not) but read some women spaces and it's obviously a lot of people, especially women, just want to be let alone. Don't start talking with random people unless they start talking to you and it's consensual, simple as that.
Yeah but if everyone follows that then nobody ever talks to anyone “random” ever. The key is to just not be creepy. Some little low stakes thing that can just end easily if they don’t want to chat. “Such a long wait for this bus. Should have brought a book.” If you get a brief response, fine, end of conversation. Otherwise, then you can chat.
>if everyone follows that then nobody ever talks to anyone “random” ever.
well, yes. mission accomplished.
> The key is to just not be creepy.
Sadly, the ones who are creepy never realize they are creepy.
> or how to get labeled as a creep by every women
If you’re a man and go into it with the mindset of only talking to women, especially attractive ones, then of course that would get you labeled as a creep because it is creep behaviour. That’s not striking up a conversation with strangers, it’s hitting on women. You have to approach anyone equally. Address the attractive woman the same way you approach the old man on the bus stop.
Talking to people you are attracted to is how the human race lives on.
And noone knows if you are talking to people "equally" they only know the conversation they are currently in.
I guess you could just hit on everyone. Old, ugly, whatever! Then you won't be a creep.
But in all seriousness, the difference between courting someone and creeping someone out is how attractive you are to them, not the other way around.
Bullshit. That's internet incel horseshit. Have an actual conversation. Get to a point where your sole, entire intention isn't just to con a woman into sleeping with you, and where you like, maybe want to get to know her. Lose the weird, internet pick-up artist intensity.
Like, do random men you talk to think you're a creep? If they do, then maybe it's time to get some life coaching. If not, maybe, just maybe, there's some subtle differences in how you approach people you see as sex toys vs. people you see as, you know, people.
>Get to a point where your sole, entire intention isn't just to con a woman into sleeping with you, and where you like, maybe want to get to know her.
But the point of this exercise isn't to make a deep friendship. It's practice. Is this article inherently creepy?
>Like, do random men you talk to think you're a creep? If they do, then maybe it's time to get some life coaching.
If they do, they're a lot better at hiding it. The big difference is in threat level. I don't see men nor women approach me and think "are they trying to hurt me/hit on me" as a default.
> But the point of this exercise isn't to make a deep friendship. It's practice.
Personally, that wasn't my takeaway. I thought it was more that you and the other person would get some joy out of the interaction. As in, conversations with strangers will be fun, even if you don't end up being friends.
Where did I say not to have an actual conversation?
You can hit on someone and connect with them.
Be nice, connect, open up, share, listen, love. All that shit.
Then you'll get a wife, like myself. Good luck.
Or just make friends, or enemies, whatever floats your boat.
I find it interesting how this comment says we should be socialising with everyone equally, and another upvoted comment elsewhere here says to modify your appearance to be more approachable.
So which is it?
So, trying to approach women is creepy. Got it.
Common sense applies. If someone is on a run, dont bother them. If you are in a queue I think make a comment is OK if theh respond keep talking.
> Don't start talking with random people unless they start talking to you
Nobody would talk with anybody if both sides thought like that
I'm very conscious of this, perhaps more so due to being a brown immigrant, which is why I prefer to chat with men or older people. There's much less ambiguity there.
It's only creepy if you are a creep.
That's exactly right, you've got to be an unmistakable gentleman, which is just the opposite.
As everybody knows that's still often not enough, but why shoot yourself in the foot when you're trying to put your best foot forward?
I'll never forget the day some sophisticated gentlemen came to my school and introduced one of their big hit songs that night.
How there's 5 little words so many single women love to hear, "Hey Girl, What's Your Name?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09w6_q0Chxk
If you look at the lyrics it is a bit straightforward for the 21st century, I think the best approach now is to compress it to only 4 words, "Hi, What's Your Name?".
Even that can be a bit much in the wrong situation, so it can be good to seek out the opposite type of situation :)
You might keep that on your mind but from there let things try to imply the rest of the lyrics, especially the part that goes "Can I Be Your Friend?"
>As everybody knows that's still often not enough, but why shoot yourself in the foot when you're trying to put your best foot forward?
Because the best food forward of a creep is still a creep.
>a creep is still a creep.
Yeah, some people are only up to no good :\
If you can't differentiate yourself from that, it would be something to work on well before you try and be as socially acceptable as the average joe.
For everyone else who's not a creep, maybe you just have to "accept" that everyone in the world just doesn't want to be socially acceptable anyway.
> Don't start talking with random people unless they start talking to you
How would that work exactly? Someone needs to go first.
Don't bother people obviously and if they don't want to talk they don't want to talk, that should always be respected. It's just that the idea that "you should never talk to anyone" is massively fueling a loneliness epidemic.
As for interaction with men and women: Everyone seems to agree that dating apps suck and that people should just "go out and meet people". Good luck with that if you're not allowed to talk to anyone.
There's a number of people how are going to be creeps and disrespectful, but they also don't give a shit about your "don't talk to me rule", so now ALL your interactions are going be with creeps.
Talk to as many people as you can, but be respectful, learn to read who'd rather be left alone and stop if the person clearly doesn't want to talk to you.
> The disappearance of these kinds of interactions from day-to-day life – in pubs, restaurants, shops, queues, on public transport – is striking.
> We are losing a basic human skill. The ability to speak to others and understand them is being compromised.
I fail to see how these two ideas are connected. How is my ability to speak and listen to the people I care about—my parrnts, my friends, my spouse and kids—hindered by my unwillingness to talk to a complete stranger in a supermarket line? I don't hate or hold any ill feelings towards them, it's just that I'm more comfortable being to myself and I have only so much capacity to talk and too many people in the city I live in. I would understand if the article was focused on the reluctancy to bond with people in more or less stable groups (at work or at school) but I don't buy the "strangers" argument.
The most difficult thing is to break the ice.
Once this is done, everything feels easy. The trick is to have a rough idea of what you'll say and just take the plunge. And practice.
We all fear rejection. Once you get past that fear, you realise most people are reasonable human beings just like you.
If you're curious about the topic, I recommend the book Rejection Proof, by Jia Jiang.
Fascinating post for THIS forum.
I don’t know about others but a big reason I went into software development (whether I want to admit it or not) is because I am “naturally” not very skilled in talking to, or dealing with , people.
While I’ve done very well in tech, the truth is, lacking this skill has only been a detriment.
The problem at this point is I truly don’t like random people, and I have no idea how to fix that. Often people are rude, inconsiderate, selfish, etc. the canonical example is being in a row at the grocery store, walking down the row, someone’s cart is just way out in the center blocking your path, and as you approach, they do nothing.
Anyways “people skills” are definitely a SKILL and one I’ve avoided to my detriment over the years. Need to work on that.
I think people also overlook opportunities to talk... at their peril.
I remember going to a motel (they actually had cabins) to reserve a place for relatives coming into town. The owner was a nice guy, and he ran the whole place himself.
I took the girlfriend with me, drove over and we walked over to talk to him. As I started the conversation, you could see he took pride in his place and he was a garrulous guy with sort of a twinkle in his eye.
"How much will this cost?!" the girlfriend blurted out.
All of a sudden the blossoming conversation ground to a halt, as he put his hand on the back of his neck and started thinking about what a cheap room would go for.
We talked about it later, sort of like "I think we were all starting to form a relationship at the start of the conversation, and we lost an opportunity"
I think all of us have these opportunities to form a relationship with lots of people we interact with every day, and we can allow it or deny it.
I am currently struggling with a deep rumination loop about events from 35 years ago; the trigger three weeks ago was completely accidental, but it was one of the biggest shocks I’ve had in decades. I can't help but think how different life would be if I had the communication skills then that I have now.
Growing up in a conservative, religious household outside the US, there was no support for slow processors, and those who didn't fit the dogma were simply told to 'shut up.' The more you were forced to shut up, the more you closed off. Since this was before the internet, self-help tools were non-existent. I really wish the coaching tools and protocols we have today had been available back then. It wouldn't have changed everything, but it would have given me the tools to manage many situations that I simply couldn't handle at the time.
And yes, I agree with the headline... talk to people, anyone, everyone. Maybe you’ll get help, or maybe you just go for it—because regardless of any embarrassment you face now, you may find yourself proud of that courage decades later.
PS: Improved with AI
I used to talk to strangers a lot when I was younger. But then I started getting older and more scary looking. I developed memories of older men making unwanted advances towards me. I became horribly afraid of making anyone else feel that way, so I stopped.
I know the article's advice is to take a chance, and if I scare someone else so be it. But something about that feels wrong to me.
Reaching middle age, as a guy I thought women were more open to friendliness. I have always assumed it was the shadow of a safe "friendly grandpa" effect. Older men have the opportunity to be seen as less intimidating (assuming you don't emit predator vibes).
Or perhaps alternately I've learnt over the years to be more genuinely friendly.
I've seen men and women attempting to start a friendly conversation and have it backfire - because others can tell if someone is needy. Sometimes people are desperate for a conversation, but they sadly frighten away everyone.
I've also really leant into starting conversations with other guys. The stereotype is a bunch of old men yacking about "boring" stuff, and you can totally just accept that and have fun talking about anything. It's only boring if you lack the wit to discern something interesting within a conversation.
There's also an art to looking approachable, so that others can initiate a conversation with you. I am not skilled at it, but I recognize it. Or alternatively recognizing when someone is open to having a conversation started.
I agree with this article completely.
I've had three long and very memorable conversations on internaltional plane flights in the past, with three extremely interesting and intelligent people. I don't tend to take those flights anymore, they were for work and the novelty of international travel for work wore off. Now I get out of it whenever I can.
But those three conversations have stayed with me.
It is sad how so many tech people try to avoid every form of social contact and even try to build a society around it (just look at meta)
Say what? Technology has been awesome, it pretty much eliminates the risk in social interactions. With Internet, you are not forced to be part of a community you have no interest in and who do not like you anyway because of your interests, but you can choose and pick your own community. And the same goes for dating apps, they help completely derisk the initial approach and as pointed out elsewhere in this thread, risk of being seen as a creep.
It's been profitable for them. I hate it, but I can't blame them. They sacrificed their social lives studying for years to get to that point.
I usually dislike when people talk to me in public. Some people have nothing to say but they trap you in a conversation anyways. Some people are genuinely interesting and energizing to talk to. Either way, every conversation i've had in public has stuck with me and I can remember these conversations 6+ years later.
My personal philosophy has always been that “everyone has at least ONE good story to share.” Everyone. Best way to discover these gems is to talk with anyone as when the mood suits you. I’m a richer person for the stories that I’ve been honored to hear.
I feel that there is a down-spiral to this. People who talk to me usually want something from me so I started avoiding people since I have the expectation that they want something form me which means that I also think I look like a weirdo whenever I try to talk to somebody so I stop talking to people.
https://archive.ph/VrnI7
Visited Fiji and stayed in the "locals" area rather than in one of the tourist resorts. Everywhere I went, would get stopped by locals and asked how my day was going, where I was going, what I was up to.
Shamefully my tourist-shields were at maximum after experiences in Morocco/Ethiopia and similar, and many people I ignored and kept walking as fast as I could.
Eventually I found myself in a conversation I couldn't easily escape from and I realised... they're just being friendly. They were all just being friendly. I spoke to dozens afterwards and had nice little chats, with no motives, no scams, no sales, no brothers-uncle's shop that I must visit.
(I did get scammed in the taxi though, by someone who didn't make conversation :) )
One of my best stranger conversations talking to a “Big Issue” seller outside a supermarket. As I understand, they’re (close to) homeless usually [1].
When I asked about him, he mentioned he’s Irish but moved on to tell me about his plans. How he was saving to have a farm, planned what to grow, animals - 15m of quite precise description. His story was his future.
This was striking for me - when asked most people tell you about their past, where they’re coming from. It was the first time I realised that where we’re going should be a bigger part of our story and identity.
I try to keep that conversation in mind.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Issue
It's either my country or the parenting I got that makes me incapable of trusting a stranger. I don't know who I might be talking to, or who that person I talked to might talk to, and while it might be fine to talk to someone who you'll never see again, I'm really wary of my privacy and how people knowing what I do for a living (and by extension how much I make) might put me in harm's way.
I'm kind of a misnthrope. I don't know my neighbors and I don't want to. I bought my current house in part because it has a fence around it. I wear earbuds in the store so random people don't try to talk to me (I'm also tall so I get people asking me to get things down for them somewhat often). I teach college so I guess I get enough interaction with strangers from having new students every semester.
Yet you felt the need to write exactly that to no one but total strangers on the internet without getting anything immediately out of it other than other people reading it.
My problem isn't anxiety, but don't know what to talk about to stranger. How to solve this?
I’m wrapping up a 4 month stint at a fancy hotel working as a valet attendant. My job responsibilities as written were parking cars and helping with bags, but the unspoken expectation was that I also greet everyone who passed by my desk. These conversations are all low stakes but make such a difference in my day, and I think the article hits it on the head when they say it doesn’t have to be groundbreaking to be beneficial. The hard part is going to be continuing the habit when I’m not getting paid for it.
Sometimes I want to strike up a conversation but get no reaction or even a dismissive glance and get ignored. It feels like the universe has a script and I went off track.
I always start a convo with a question, " what is exciting in your life?" - it brings out good things out of people and positivity to the conversation that is following... It brings in perspective. My past leader once said, "understand the people first before you start to work with them"... it is what I believe is missing.. trying to learn about people around us and sometimes taking a chance and strike a conversation with a stranger.. we will learn a great deal even from a small talk..
>I always start a convo with a question, " what is exciting in your life?"
Sadly, nothing. Stuck on 2 part time jobs, I see more layoffs than job posts, I'm about to be soft evicted from my current dwelling, and my country decided to start yet another needless war.
That question works in good times in a high trust society. Now it just reminds you how little there is to look forward to.
Does it work in Scandinavian countries?
I can't imagine it would, at least not without some (a lot of) social lube. Even bars might prove hard, since a lot of people there will be the regulars and other fixed groups who probably aren't interested in making friends. If you could join the smokers for a fag that might work out, but that doesn't happen any more since you can't smoke outside public establishments (which is fair, but it does remove a potential social arena).
It's reasonably possible at events. Cars and Coffee works great, since everybody wants to talk about their car. I doubt it will work at the dentist, since nobody really wants to be there in the first place. Maybe if they're wearing a shirt or something you can compliment or ask about and then can use that as a springboard?
If you're the dictionary definition of an extrovert you can probably still make it work, but you'll really stand out, and you'll be rejected a lot.
My problem is that most people have very little to add to my life.
I am anonymously writing this because it is a strange outcome of talking to someone by making an effort to do so. I never intended anything when I made an effort to speak with a girl , but to my surprise it ended up with an offer to meet and an invitation for more !! I never thought it would happen to me because I am neither good looking or handsome kinds.
As someone who identifies with the text, a very introverted guy that almost never starts a conversation but it's able to maintain it once they other person starts it, and as someone who has never dated any girl (and failed to do so) I'll just say: almost every random person that talks with me...is a man.
It doesn't seems...fair...and, again, says a lot about society.
That women feel pressured to be introverted and/or man feel pressured to be extroverted. Being the opposite is a handicap.
Although, the good part, is that the personality doesn't seems to be genetic and doesn't come from your parents either, otherwise we would be extinct (literally).
Unfortunately, this situation makes me think about genre issues in an different way, not only sort of understanding why they happen, but surprised that it's not more common. I've met very horrid persons, that have achieve what I haven't, just because women doesn't seem to try to see past them. Is like they gave up...
That society is clearly sick and unwell.
Not sure how you get that impression because a guy who's never been on a date doesn't initiate conversation with women?
random people wont really talk to you because they have no way to evaluate who you are. it is nothing about you, but a reflection on society. the stranger is now a danger to women. this is what they taught in school too, and internet show them that all stranger use aggressive mean pick up artist tactics~
before 1990s there was very little international travel, small town everyone know each other, speak english. very little drugs and tattoos etc. stranger on the street most likely grew up less than a few hundred miles away. very little gun violence between strangers. most importantly no stupid pick up artist culture.
most blue collar people were only friends with blue collar people (not even drink wine), rich people only hang out with rich people (beer is for the plebs, only wine for us), and class was obvious by your clothes. they judge whether to talk to you by haircut , makeup., etc. remember this time many people dont even know what an ivy league school is. no internet.
now we have open society without judgement or visible hierarchies, it is not possible for a stranger to judge you so they they will totally avoid you. now you must install apps. these are merely a computer algorithm for women to judge men (salary, height, SATs, postcode, wealth) and filter
the best way is to join local community groups and form friendships over time. but now even these are being used aggressively to findd women, like running clubs and climbing clubs, so people will be very apprehensive of you. you must choose an interest which you genuinely enjoy but requires enough specific effort it doesnt end up full of normoids.
I've joined local groups for anime and videogames, but they are mostly anime. Videogames and programming seems to be almost exclusively masculine (the stereotypes are there for a reason) but the few girls there doesn't seem much different.
Maybe I've had bad luck, maybe I need to search more, but still...the situation seems to be similar everywhere.
try group that are tied to your geography rather than international subculture
eg videogaming subculture was good during 00s LAN era because it was local. you would be seeing people from your town and surrounds. now gaming is just online random anons
pottery classes, painting, hiking trails, wine bars, farmers markets .
Goodluck in North America!
Most people are in headphones and give weird looks if you try doing small talks. I find it's easier to talk with older people.
I found New England particularly difficult in this regard. Even my neighbors don't want to talk. But, I love this thread. It is so fun to bump into a person and share life for a few minutes. For me, if I'm busy and stressed I don't do this so a lot of it is about my own headspace.
>"the biggest excuse"
Most important line in this article. People will always find an excuse (and i'm including myself in this at times) but that is all it is, an excuse. Talking to people is what makes us human and its innate. You might not be the best conversationalist or whatever but you can still talk to people, no need to put any pressure on it.
Ask questions.
Something I learned from being around a few outgoing friends over the years, the easiest way to start a conversation is to ask questions. Even if you already know the answer, it breaks the ice and let's them do the talking. Don't know what to say next? Ask another question.
I've done some Uber driving. Chatting in a car is great because there's no awkwardness of whether to look at one another. I've met some really interesting people, from all backgrounds. I can recommend it if you have time to spare and want to chat with people.
Not everyone wants to talk but you can pick up on that pretty quickly.
When I first my met father-in-law in my college days, we ended up going to the store to get my wife (then GF) some random supplies. I struck up a conversation with a stranger and my FIL asked his daughter, “Does he know that guy?” She laughed and replied, “Probably not.”
I don't know if anyone follows Jefferson Fisher on ig but his content on how to communicate has always resonated with me as someone who struggles with meeting new people. It's been especially helpful since I've recently moved to a new city.
If anyone doesn't know where to start - start in places you're stuck next to people. Like in line to check out at the grocery store. I have struck up dozens of conversations looking at the belt and guessing what they're making for dinner. People who like to cook love to talk about cooking.
And it's less threatening - there's a defined end-point for people. In like, 2 minutes, they'll never have to see you again.
I hate these sort of things. Like everyone is just sitting there hoping, hoping for someone to strike up a conversation with them. Oh thank god someone has started a conversation with me! /sarcasm
Respect people's boundaries please. Don't force yourself on people unless they're obviously willing participants.
People put extroversion/introversion as like this binary, permanent thing that cannot be changed. In reality I think it is a spectrum that changes throughout the day and the situation. Someone might be introverted at 8am on their commute, but a wild extrovert at 9pm in the bar. Don't assume, don't try to "help" people you know nothing about.
What's being "forced"? And what boundaries aren't being respected? If someone attempts to strike up a conversation and you're not interested, you can signal that. Or just be direct and say you don't feel like talking. Sure, that can be uncomfortable, but you can't expect humanity as a whole to repress its social nature just to spare you occasional, fleeting moments of mild discomfort. (And despite the wide spectrum of social inclinations -- I'm definitely on the introverted end -- I think it's accurate to say that humans, as a species, crave social interaction.)
In your ideal world, how would someone even signal they are a "willing participant" without talking to someone?
Because it is this "talk to anyone" thing, like if they say no you just need to keep trying because really deep down they just don't know how nice you're being by giving them a chance to talk to you.
It's supreme arrogance. Read the body language and just leave people alone.
If someone is up for talking they'll show the obvious signs - facing you, eye contact, smiling, that sort of waiting-for-something look/expression. I've had e-fucking-nough of people thinking they can "fix" me when I am trying to get some time to myself waiting for a train or whatever after a stressful day at work or being woken up endlessly by kids/neighbours/whatever.
Otherwise it should be "talk to anyone who is obviously open to and willing to have a conversation with you", at which point it's a total tautology anyway and you don't need a guide, it's just natural chat that you don't need to force on someone to make it happen.
> keep trying because really deep down they just don't know how nice you're being by giving them a chance to talk to you.
I don't fathom what kind of trauma would lead you to take this positive, light-hearted advice to connect to fellow human beings, and to spin this into such a vile, evil, anti-social narrative.
How does that help?
And that's precisely the point: you can't fathom what someone has been through.
Don't assume people want to talk. Respect boundaries, leave people alone.
This advice has the potential soothe political rift. I rarely see anymore two people on opposite sides having a calm discussion of facts such as Krystal and Saagar often do. We need more of that. Dehumanizing the other side has costs.
Smoking used to be a very effective social interaction catalyzer back in my young days.
It still is. I gave up for 15 years, and just the last two years i have been smoking. In these last two years, I've met a lot of people in my company out in the smoker's den, and quite a few of them are really interesting people.
I no longer smoke as a habit, but when I have to travel solo (like for work) I sometimes will buy a pack just so I have an excuse to strike up a conversation with other humans without being called a creep or weirdo. "Hey, you got a light? What brand you smoking? How are you liking the conference so far?"
Here's my life hack: Caffeine makes my verbal fluency suck so I enter a self-reinforcing cycle of not wanting to talk to people. Nicotine makes my verbal fluency not suck so I naturally want to talk to people.
Because of this I do nicotine. Is this healthy? Probably not.
I would imagine a common goal could alleviate the resistancy? Talking while jogging or doing shoot-out at a basketball court sounds like a good way to fill in that small gap in between actions.
I talk to everyone and anyone; it's really great actually. Been doing that all over the world for most of my life (50+). Most people enjoy it; many are lonely and I often end up at parties / dinners etc at complete strangers.
I think it's mostly the denormalisation of this. Indeed someone just randomly striking a conversation with a stranger will come across as a psycho or a creep. No one wants to be perceived that way.
That’s what I loved about NYC, people were generally open-minded and easy to talk to, so I’d chat with tons of people spontaneously. Having moved back to France now, it generally feels harder and weirder, but I got used to it.
The solution to social anxiety suggested in the article boils down to "just stop being anxious".
I'm glad for people who don't struggle with this, I just wish they would be more empathetic.
I have always found it helpful to try and put yourself in the other person's shoes to look at the situation. makes it easier to connect IMO
Man, talking to strangers in random places just feels socially uncalibrated to me, like I'm being retarded. The first time I across that idea was in the form of "cold approach", the idea of trying to score a date from a woman you see while out and about.
I wonder if anyone who did this had to start from a baseline of feeling this is straight up weird (I'm pretty sure it is weird in my culture).
This is very different
Most random encounters have a pretext, from smoking a cigarette to talking to the shopkeeper, or being in a queue for a long time.
Talking to a woman ( esp given that many of them are harassed from what I understand from my female friends ) without any reason to is much harder
Cold approaches worked better before social media and smartphones . now your awkward encounters can live forever online and cause humiliation for years to come , or some stranger looking for clout may step in. This is has become so common now , because everyone wants to be a hero.
I do look forward to being an older person because at a certain age I do feel society gives you carte blanche to talk to anybody.
This is an interesting piece; talking to people will also give you a better clarity to things than just keeping it to yourself
I fail at the first hurdle. A small innocuous comment is often met with a "huh?" as if I had said it in Japanese or mentioned how nice the wallpaper tastes. It's like they clock the (relatively mild) autism immediately. Then I just feel super self conscious and lock up
I hate it when strangers try to talk to me in public (e.g., on public transportation, at work). I absolutely do not care what you have to say, what you do, how your day went, how many pets you have, what your hobbies are, or where you spent your holidays, and at the same time, in no way do I want to share any details about my life, not out of privacy or anxiety of speaking but out of sheer annoyance and indifference. However, most of the time I do not want to insult the person that tries to talk to me in any way, so I just stay silent and try to endure this torturous assault until I find a suitable moment to get away.
People should try to sense when someone wants to get left alone and leave them alone. I don't know how much you communicate that and misunderstandings do happen. Anyway regardless of whether someone just doesn't get that you don't feel like talking or whether they do not care, when just giving short direct answers to questions that only maintain the minimum level of friendliness does not work to get someone to stop talking to you you are doing both of you a favor by directly, but politely telling them that you do not feel like talking right now.
I absolutely don't want random strangers talking to me and I cannot be alone.
It is hard as fuck for me. But every time it happened (either me or other person starting) turned out a great memory on itself, or lead to great experiences right after. Still, I do it less often that I would like
WFH for half a year, I think I need to go out more and network more.
There's some solid advice in here - especially around performative interactions vs genuine.
I was someone who was raised home schooled and it really altered my ability to communicate with my peers, which was something I had to really work on later in life. It surprises most people who know me when I tell them this, as I'm a pretty outgoing / gregarious person these days. It was a deliberate choice on my part, and I likely overindexed on it, leading to me now being highly social.
For those looking to do the same, I'll offer my own advice: how you engage socially depends on how large the audience is.
Small audiences (1-2 people):
If you don't know them: your goal should be to get them to smile without feeling threatened. A lot of people fail at that last part. Don't give someone a compliment like, "I like your pants" out of the blue - it may threaten them that you have alterior motives ("Are they attracted to me?", "Do they just like how my butt looks in these pants?"). Reframe compliments in a way that isn't threatening - ask them something instead like, "Hey weird question, but can I ask what brand those pants are? I want to get my sibling a birthday present and I think they'd really like those". It shows you see them as positive without it being a threatening interaction.
If you do know them: your goal should be to be interested in what they are saying. Find the topic that will stimulate your mind / get you excited to hear them talk more about it. Don't just gamify it and try to get them to talk more than you talk; that's an easy way to make yourself not look genuine. Dig and find gold - everyone has somethinig cool to say, it's your job to find that.
Medium audiences (3-8 people):
Be the facilitator. Don't butt in to get your own voice heard, butt in to segue to others who haven't had their voice heard. "Omg thats crazy X, hey Y you recently had something similar happen right?". Keep the flow going. Your goal should be to make everyone else feel like they've found gold in the conversation with new and interesting nuggest on a regular basis.
Large audiences (9-30 people):
These are basically meetings, and are the worst possible social interaction. Your goal should be to make these as smooth as possible and end them quickly so you can break to smaller sizes. Present facts clearly without emotion, keep things on topic so you can move past them.
Presentations (30+ people):
With this size you do the reverse of the prior size - the facts don't matter at all. Your goal should be to present emotions, not facts. Don't tell people what the % YoY growth is. Control how they should feel about the % YoY growth. This is the biggest #1 failure I see from inexperienced presenters - they aim to just present the info. People can read the info later - convey to them the emotion they should take away from the data. On every slide you have you should have a goal emotion, and you should reflect that emotion in your presentation. Look at any great presenter and you'll notice the same - they have the audience's emotions in their hands.
Interesting, because I've been thinking about group sizes and their effects on social dynamics.
However, I guess it depends on the goal? Like in medium audiences, WHY be the facilitator for others? I mean it's a good thing to do if there's such a person or maybe if you're the host, etc. But in my opinion in most cases the point is to contribute to the conversation.
For large/presentations- fact versus emotion thing seems arbitrary. In most "social" situations emotions triumph regardless of size. But again there are factors other than size that would factor more into this. I don't disagree with anything- more like all of it could go either way and it's fine.
I read in a couple of comments that you are worried about "bothering people". To be honest, don't worry about it, you can attribute sufficient life skills to others to simply tell you (verbally or non-verbally) in case they feel bothered.
>you can attribute sufficient life skills to others to simply tell you (verbally or non-verbally) in case they feel bothered.
The non-verbal cues are wher things get difficult.
I tried this in college, but just got ignored or brushed off.
This is a really good post
I'm at Paris Baguette, a Korean lower-end coffee shop chain common in the Bay Area. The guy next to me has headphones on and his laptop on a stand. Or it's four middle-aged Latino women celebrating a birthday. Or it's a bunch of local high-school kids.
Do I lean over and say, "Hi, how are you guys doing? Really good coffee they have here, huh?"
I'm at the gym. It's a big-box gym. It's full of dudes wearing Airpods Max, a few couples in skintight athletic outfits, a few teens with phones on tripods filming themselves for Tiktok.
Do I come over, gesture for them to take off their headphones, and say, "Hi, how are you guys doing? That's really good form, on that lift, really good form. Keep it up!"
I'm waiting to cross a road. On the other side of the road is a Caltrain crossing. The traffic light cycle takes forever, and then the train comes and preempts it. And then preempts it again when people finish getting on. A crowd of parents with strollers are waiting to cross. People are returning from the farmer's market with bags of vegetables. People on bikes.
Do I lean over and say, "Hey, how are you guys all doing? It sure takes a while to cross. Wow!"
Yes, it's that easy!
I recommend the book "The Fine Art of Small Talk".
TLDR: Small talk seems to be of trivial importance and to require minimal effort. Neither of this is true. Therefore, there is no shame in cultivating one's smalltalk muscle and being more prepared for it
In a world full of shallow people and AI here and there, people cannot hold deep talks anymore. You can still talk with anyone but going out specifically to talk with anyone??? Yeah, that ain't happening.
It gives me anxiety lmao you will have better time with hobbies.
Ok but can we have another post on how to subtly signal that you do not want to be talked to?
I've rather assumed this is half the use of airpods.
The irony of this being behind a paywall. People want to milk money on everything.
"how to listen to anyone"
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>I guess my tangent meant to point at the need for both general, or specialized, "social hubs", where regularly appearing people silently agree to, eventually, getting talked to.
Those are called "3rd places". Those have sadly been on the decline for the past 30 years.
It's easy to point to phones as the problem, but few can point to proper solutions. Because they don't exist in the same way the previous generations had it.
You can't simplify it to "people want to hate each other".
The topical issues of today causing strife are not reconcilable when the division is "these are the people we're going to hate".
First I was happy to see someone from Vienna but then I noticed hat you're a bot. HN isn't the same anymore...
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a table-soccer coffeehouse, now I know what I want to do in life :)
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Why does the majority of people just assume people want to communicate... I have not read the article and never am going to. This headline premise alone of doing that will destroy any sanity I have. I do not, ever, want to talk you as a standard and you should never force that to me.
You should really read the article rather than judging it based on the title. The author establishes several reasons you might want to speak to others and highlights cultural phenomena where people seem to be yearning for more connection with strangers.
If after reading it you decide it’s not for you then that’s fine, it is as they say bean soup.
> Why does the majority of people just assume people want to communicate
They don’t. If they did they wouldn’t have an issue striking up a conversation with strangers, but they clearly do.
> I have not read the article and never am going to.
If you don’t know what it says, it might be wise to not be negative about it.
> I do not, ever, want to talk you as a standard and you should never force that to me.
The article isn’t suggesting anyone force anything. Quite the contrary, it advocates for respecting boundaries and even suggests how to communicate your own.
You basically just 'forced' me to read your comment. Aren't you talking to a stranger here?
The other day I saw a guy on the train looking at pictures he was actively receiving of a topless woman. He was clearly enjoying it, in his own little world, so I leaned over and said “don’t get scammed buddy”.
His anger brewed for a few minutes and he decided he wanted to fight me, so he menacingly stood up. I remained seated and told him to sit down. He ended up grabbing me by the throat, while no-one around did a thing to stop him.
It’s made me think twice about interacting with random people, tits or no tits. But I doubt I’ll learn anything from it and continue with reckless abandon, because life is mundane otherwise.
Involving yourself by commenting on very personal matters, especially in a smug or condescending manner, is almost guaranteed to end badly.
Losing one’s temper leads things to end badly.
Losing your temper when a serious boundary has been crossed is natural and expected. It had a positive outcome in that it stopped your bad behaviour immediately.
> He ended up grabbing me by the throat, while no-one around did a thing to stop him.
The bystander effect is real, but you should also take this opportunity for self-reflection, because in this case, you were the person behaving badly who instigated the situation.
> But I doubt I’ll learn anything from it
Yes, unfortunately it seems unlikely you will.
Serious boundary? He put tits in front of my eyes. Am I supposed to remember to keep my eyes pinned to the floor when out in public? What a terrible way you must live.
I’m afraid to say, that if you want a boundary, go home. Otherwise, accept that you’re in public, and people can and will speak to you.
Also, you’ve just justified being violent in response to someone making sounds with their mouth. I bet you’re a calm person to be around, when everyone does what you want.
No verbal comment, be it a comment or an actual insult or otherwise, justifies violence and crossing the body threshold. In what world do you live?
In the real world, many comments can and will provoke violence. In many cases, it's justifiable.
> In what world do you live?
In what bubble do you live? Go out into the world and behave like the GP. Your apparent mental model of society will collapse quickly.
You’ve suggested they live in a bubble, yet your comments suggest that you expect no-one to “invade” your blissful little privacy bubble, and believe it’s okay to strike out and be physically violent to others if they do.
> Go out into the world and behave like the GP. Your apparent mental model of society will collapse quickly.
The problem you’ve got is that I will win. If you permit escalating mouth words to physical violence, I’ll have stabbed you in the face for your mouth words before you’ve gotten very far. Subduing your propensity for physical escalation is in your favour.
> If you permit escalating mouth words to physical violence, I’ll have stabbed you in the face for your mouth words before you’ve gotten very far.
Of course you would. What an infantile response divorced from reality.
This is quite entertaining and I'm glad there are people like you, but you didn't even think it would be inappropriate to comment on a naked picture that someone receives in a private conversation? I don't even think you were supposed to look at his phone.
Yeah, you see, I don’t think you’ve quite understood the art of talking to anyone. It doesn’t happen by staring at the floor and minding your own business. Quite the opposite, mostly.
Despite illusions and every misguided attempt, when in public, you’re not actually in an impenetrable little bubble. And when your bubble bursts, you can laugh, or get angry. I recommend choosing laughter because it’s easier on the eyes.
> Yeah, you see, I don’t think you’ve quite understood the art of talking to anyone
Have you? You're dripping with condescension for everyone who's replied to you so far, in addition to the guy in your anecdote. You've asked one person to "fuck off" when they were polite. Do you think closewith or pingou have enjoyed their interaction with you?
Or is your art of talking to people just meant to amuse you and ignore the feelings of others?
By the way, there is a social convention that we refrain from commenting on what's on people's phones even though we can see it. It's considered an invasion of privacy if we do.
> You've asked one person to "fuck off" when they were polite.
Someone doesn't understand an example when they see one.
> You're dripping with condescension for everyone who's replied to you so far,
Yes
> Or is your art of talking to people just meant to amuse you and ignore the feelings of others?
Every one of you has failed to see what's wrong with expecting people to act the way _you_ want when in public, and been compelled to tell me how _you_ think I should act to make _you_ happy. I can act the way I want, just like the gorilla on the train can act how he wants, and hark: this is the world. One can laugh at it, or one can get angry. I am laughing. You are, what? Being moved by symbols appearing on a screen, which evoked emotions attached to your lack of control over the way _I_ behave, which makes you feel afraid because I could "invade your privacy" -- what does that even mean? Like seriously, what does that matter what my eyes see? Why am I responsible for averting my eyes from shit you're presenting in public? Why should I not pass comment? Did I hurt your feelings? Because you forgot you're in public and didn't keep your shit private enough? Or did you hurt your own feelings through your own unrealistic expectations and your own failure to keep private what you just bandied around in public?
Because I can explain why you shouldn't turn into an ape and physically attack someone. Because physical violence leads to injuries which cannot be undone.
I am so sorry that I saw your phone in public, and that your feelings were so hurt by what my eyes saw - as a failure to stare firmly at the ground. And I'm sorry that my mouth vibrated some air particles that tickled your eardrum in a way that revealed a truth that made you feel uncomfortable. Beat me, I deserve everything you have for me.
What a troubled world you're trying to enforce.
> By the way, there is a social convention that we refrain from commenting on what's on people's phones even though we can see it.
There's a social convention that you don't go around displaying tits on screens that other people might see. So what? Did I turn into an ape and start fighting him? No.
>It's considered an invasion of privacy if we do.
"Invasion"? I barely moved a muscle. On this basis, his pornography invaded my consciousness. Did I turn into an ape and start fighting him? No.
Forgive me for speaking to all of you, for a brief moment, from a place of condescension, but y'all have a fragile expectation of privacy in public, if y'all are gonna turn into gorillas the moment you become aware of your own failure to conceal what you wish you kept private. Privacy is not in harmony with the properties of the physical world when in close proximity to other human beings - and it's not anyone's job to turn their eyes off, or keep their mouth shut, for your pleasure, just as the sky has no job ensuring the weather is in keeping with your desires. You can either fight or allow the world around you. I'm suggesting to you, that you allow it. The world rains on me all the time, and I play with every drop. If you're fighting, you're choosing to fight, and it's not a good look. If you're being "invaded", you're choosing to have something to defend.
I'm declining your invitation to close my eyes, and I'm letting you know my door is open, so come on in, but please, if you wouldn't mind - take your shoes off.
<3
You've written a lot of words to avoid saying a simple thing - you wanted to mess with someone to entertain yourself and it backfired. That's the whole story. The philosophy is window dressing.
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> Yeah, you see, I don’t think you’ve quite understood the art of talking to anyone.
Well, mastering the art of talking to anyone involves being able to initiate a conversation with people of many cultures, in many mental states, in many circumstances.
A master of talking to anyone won't begin with a condescending and invasive comment, as they will recognise that beginning a conversation disrespectfully is unlikely to be received warmly.
You’re being condescending and invading my space, now fuck off.
Am I doing it right?
No. That’s responding with aggression, to an otherwise placid comment.
I posit that you would be better off practicing being less offended and stuck up your own arse, and learning to live a little.
I would say mastering the art of talking to anyone includes having a good mental model of what the other person thinks or how they would react.
It can be delightful to be surprised, but if you are surprised all the time then I would say something may be wrong in the way you see the world.
Nowhere did I say that people should mind their own business at all time. You cannot imagine a situation where you shouldn't talk to a person? You feel entitled to look at their phone? Is there no social boundary you respect? You are free to not respect them, but you can't hardly be surprised to experience pushback. Again, I like that people like you exist, I hope I don't come as too aggressive.
I was not interested in his phone until my eyes were drawn to the image of some great big jubbly boobies staring back at me.
I’m sure you’ve encountered the phenomenon of noticing something unusual within your line of sight.
If you’re going to engage with such content in public with such disregard that others’ gaze may be drawn to it, then you deserve to receive whatever wisdom or drivel may spill from those onlookers lips.
And you’re right, there is nothing stopping anyone from talking to me. I accept their intrusion into my space as a peril of being in public. If you climb through my window to speak to me, that is a different matter.
I like you.
Wanna get married?
(Ah man, I’ve done it again. Please don’t hurt me, for intruding on your personal circumstances with my mouth sounds and finger symbols)
I don't know. The idea is old and looks solid but the more I think about it the more I don't buy it; people have less good friends. Many people are estranged from family. Many people barely say hello to their neighbors. Maybe we should expend our limited energy on the people we do know instead of strangers waiting for the bus. For me starting something with a complete stranger is draining; I need to overcome a psychological barrier (that's probably there for a good reason); so the risk is there. The reward ? I'm not sure. Some interactions could be fun, many could be boring and draining. Sure I could get better at this skill of talking to strangers with lots of struggle but the end game isn't really clear, it's not gonna flip my personality into a charismatic stranger lover. I could use the time to quietly stare at space or call my mom instead.
I think you're missing the part where interacting with strangers is also working the general socialization muscle. If you find yourself being more social in general, and give yourself the time to recharge, then you'll be better equipped to engage with those closest to you. You may even get lucky and add someone else to that circle
Yeah that's actualy part of my issue with this - socializing isn't super easy for me. It takes energy. Instead of "practicing" this muscle, I can simply use this skill on the people I'm supposed to use it on anyway - family, colleagues, friends etc. Instead of trying to get the person next to me waiting for the bus to talk to me I can call my best friend who I hadn't talked to in a month or more. I see no point in practicing with complete strangers. But you know what, I'm 41, about to turn 42, perhaps my priorities aren't the same as young people still building their personalities. There could be real value in being less shy and not fearing rejection so much; however I would say - find a good venue. I don't think New York subway is the bests place to start practicing this...